low end gigs blow

grinner

grinner

Carbonite Member
so like,
I have reduced my hourly rate to 100/hr due to the economy. While I had hoped this would maintain a flow from existing clients that always paid twice that, it has introduced a wave of grinders that are becoming, well, irritating.
Over and over I receive elements from a new party, start diving in and then find out they have a budget of 100/day.
Over and over I get cancelled bookings with no heads up. Over and over and over I get an agreement on a flat rate for a an agreed project then they try to multiply the project once I have started.
Man I'ma go back to my other rate when I sat and did nothing. It pays the same but offers much less stress.
 
Ironic isn't it. Thus the way of the world. The harder you are working, the less your getting paid. And the corporate owner has his "meetings" on the company yacht. :~)


I found that trend quickly when I first starting working gigs for low or no pay. That was when I was simply eager to gain the experience. But very quickly you figure out that these gigs are "run" by the incompetent who dream big, but have no real sense of what it takes to achieve what they believe is so easy to do. They run out of money, they discover that they don't know squat about producing content, and they want everything done as a favor, or for free. Some even will complain about what they get...

Sure there are a few honest souls who mean well but just lack the experience to really understand things, and with time they learn and get better. Others are just clueless and think that eveyone else they "hire" are the idiots. Most of the time you can spot these guys a mile away... But I won't go into how, cause it can get into stereotyping and "culture" differences. The sad truth is that these stereotypes exist for a reason, but mostly because of a learned behavior that just keeps getting unintentionally retaught over and over.
 
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grinner said:
Man I'ma go back to my other rate when I sat and did nothing. It pays the same but offers much less stress.
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Yep, you have discovered one of the secrets to success as a freelancer. It is much better to take the good jobs, give them your best, and play with your kids/go to the beach/watch movies/and LIVE, in-between jobs, than it is to deal with the low-end customer who a) can't afford you anyway, and b) will complain about your price every step of the way.
 
I DPed a feature film with about 5 months of pre production and on set the director had the nerve to try and talk the key grip down after agreeing on a very cheap rate. people just dont get it some times.
 
I'm assuming your meaning Post work here, Yes? or do you charge per hour for filming work?
 
I'm 100/hr for whatever I'm doing... or try to be after bidding flat rates, anyway.
I don't shoot film but I do about eveything else from producing to shooting video to editing and animation. I stopped changing rates per hat I was wearing when I started wearing them all.
 
I've found that since I raised my rates up to a decent level, i scare off all the cheappies, and snag less work. It's more meaningful work though, and the clients aren't scared by my numbers, so getting paid is never an issue.
 
I found that every time I raised my rates. My biggest client has been doing less and less out of house though and having all my eggs in that basket had me scurrying a bit.
It was a fine basket to be in for a while though.
 
I've been working for less then qualified people for the past 2 years. It pisses me off soooo much that they have almost no clue what they are doing, yet they think they can "show me how its done". Im also sick of these "you gotta be committed to the project" types. they expect I go above and beyond and do extra work for free. the only projects I'm "committed" to are the ones I dont get paid for :). maybe its time I followed my gut and quit working with fakes and flakes.
 
Wow yeah I wish I could be getting $100/hr to be honest, lol. I have to make a lot of money per month to break even with the company, though, that's for sure...

So far we're still in the early stages of trying to find the good work, but there are SO MANY cheap companies out there that just don't want to spend anything.
 
It seems the better deal they are getting the more demanding they become and end up be the least satisfied. Its the classic profile of " The Grinder ". And of course the classic line that the the next job they will be able to pay full rate. The next job never comes.

This seems to be one of the hardest lessons to teach newcomers... its like you have have to burn your fingers with some grinders before you REALLY learn to stay away.
 
I raised my rates and fired my worst clients. Now I work half as much but make a lot more money -- and my work has increased because I can afford to spend more time on a project and get it done right, which makes clients happy and eager to refer me. Sounds counter-intuitive but it works.

I don't take clients who look like they'll be grinders, but pass them on to my competitors and take a cut.
 
grinner said:
I'm 100/hr for whatever I'm doing... or try to be after bidding flat rates, anyway.
I don't shoot film but I do about eveything else from producing to shooting video to editing and animation. I stopped changing rates per hat I was wearing when I started wearing them all.
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So for a ten hour shoot day your rate would be $1000 (US).

If your getting that kind of rate I'd say your doing pretty well.
 
pmark23 said:
I raised my rates and fired my worst clients. Now I work half as much but make a lot more money -- and my work has increased because I can afford to spend more time on a project and get it done right, which makes clients happy and eager to refer me. Sounds counter-intuitive but it works.

I don't take clients who look like they'll be grinders, but pass them on to my competitors and take a cut.
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It's better to work less but for more money in my book.

Low/No Budget stuff just ends up giving you grief and a step closer to an earlier grave.
 
No/Lo should be for training only. I'm in the latter stages of that phase now as an actor. Hopefully... : )

It's true, and ironic though, that lower (or non) paying clients are disproportionately demanding. It's part of being unprofessional! As they are more or less by definition...

From the supply side (us) it has a lot to do with our "perceived value" (from our clients' point of view) rising and falling right along with how much we charge. Here's a little object lesson in that, told to me firsthand by a friend who fell on hard times:

My old friend Matt was a successful musician back in the 80's before he let his little pot-selling business on the side expand into cocaine. Initially he only sold it, but gradually started to use, and then, sadly, it took over his life. He got evicted and ended up on the street, selling batteries, cassette tapes, CDs and other stuff on the sidewalks of NYC. Very sad, but Matt actually remained fairly upbeat about it, and once he got clean he was actually a pretty successful street vendor. So here's the story:

One of the items he sold off his card tables was a miniature tool kit: a tiny screwdriver, pliers and wrench in a little vinyl snap bag. They cost him about a quarter. He priced them at $1 apiece, but didn't sell many of them. That is, until he doubled the price to $2. Then, they sold like hotcakes.

Why?

Well, probably, by pricing them at $1 he inadvertently created a perceived value of "cheap crap" (which they pretty much were of course). Raising them to $2 created a higher perceived value; now they seemed like more of a "cute little bargain" or the like, and sales took off.

So there you have it: "Perceived Value 101".

The same thing applies to all negotiated price situations, videographers being no exception. Finding the sweet spot price-wise is the key.
 
This has been posted before but its still valid for this argument:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY

My Experience with a low end client:

A good Friend of mine was starting her consulting/production business and she wanted to impress her future clientele with doing a high end production for her first customer so she could use it to market herself.

I offered to help her because I really like her as a person and she has worked very hard through adversity to get to where she is now.

We produced a 30 second commercial that would have cost 60K for a fraction of that price. I mean like less than 1/8.

What happened? Her client was soooooooooooo surprised at the bill (even though there was a signed contract) and demanded we do 2-3 more projects for free to get her monies worth.

Never again.

PS: The commercial included, Helicopters,Stunt Driver, Tyler mounts, Steadicams, crew of 20, Travel.....you name it. Most were freinds of mine so they worked for nearly free.
 
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I am saving that link and sending it to every bastard who ever asks me to work for peanuts AND supply MY equipment.

Oh and Low/no budget should be only for training of what NOT to do.
 
emretufekci said:
This has been posted before but its still valid for this argument:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY

My Experience with a low end client:

A good Friend of mine was starting her consulting/production business and she wanted to impress her future clientele with doing a high end production for her first customer so she could use it to market herself.

I offered to help her because I really like her as a person and she has worked very hard through adversity to get to where she is now.

We produced a 30 second commercial that would have cost 60K for a fraction of that price. I mean like less than 1/8.

What happened? Her client was soooooooooooo surprised at the bill (even though there was a signed contract) and demanded we do 2-3 more projects for free to get her monies worth.

Never again.

PS: The commercial included, Helicopters,Stunt Driver, Tyler mounts, Steadicams, crew of 20, Travel.....you name it. Most were freinds of mine so they worked for nearly free.
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It's really insulting, stuff like that makes you so angry...

It's like when we're offering let's say a video to a luxury apartment complex, some of which have very good occupancies already, and quote $5,000 to make them a very nice tour, either incorporating a host or voiceover or whatever, lots of jib and dolly shots, nice lighting, good editing, the works, a really nice video to showcase their property and amenities, and it's like Oh whoa whoa I thought this would be like $500. What the hell? Do you know how much apartment buildings make?! I do, I own 12% of one! They make a TON of money, luxury or not, especially in this market apartments have been making a KILLING. $5,000 is not even 10% of the PROFITS of what a good apartment building makes per month. So to get all bent out of shape over that is just weird, when it'll last you probably at least 5 years on your Website.
 
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