Lost in Translation
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John_Hudson said:
I find the film to be floundering at every step to be cohesive. That's the problem when you start improving your script.
LiT, for ME, was a nice first draft. I felt it needed a lot more work. Subtlty is one thing, and weak is another. I found it be much more on the weak side than subtle and simple. At the end of the day, I didn't care one way or another about said characters or their lives which were as interesting to me as watching paint dry.
A lot of people have responded on both sides to LiT. One is not more right that the other. This movie doesn't speak to me at all. Well, I mean it does... but verrryyyyy slowly and it doesn't really say anything.
I like the direction Sofia is going in, but she's ain't there yet. A lot more was made of this movie than it probably warranted. If it didn't star Murray (big Oscar push for him as I recall) and it wasn't made by a Copolla, there wouldn't be a thread for it now. Most of us probably wouldn't have seen or heard of it.
C'est la vie.
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surf said:
Umm... ok. I find it hard to believe, but ok.
Unfortunately my point seems to have flown over your head somehow...my point was about people in the industry and movie geeks. I find it hard to believe that anyone in either camp would see LiT without that knowledge... and the real point being that insiders and critics alike made way more of this movie because of who was in it and who wrote/directed it. Hollywood wanted a woman director to be their poster child that year, and Sofia was it. She is talented, without a doubt, but not quite as good yet as her p.r. and Hollywood hype would have Joe Public believe.
The Machinist
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Ummm Not for nothing Committed but if all this movie had going for it was Scarlet J.....I'd still have seen it.
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The Machinist said:
LOL... to each his/her own. Frankly, I thought she was awful in the movie and she does nothing for me personally. But whatever floats your individual boats is cool with me as long as they're over 18.
rogar-BigGrin(DBG)
J.R. Hudson
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Ought2bCommitted said:
Allegations that Hollywood wanted a woman director to be their poster child is absurd. Did you make that up ? This is your conclusion? Are you an insider to the machine of Hollywood ? Come on. That's too funny. Were you sitting inthe dark room when the old man made this decision ?
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I think if most people did not get this film they probably just could not identify with it. It was a small, soft spoken piece grounded on a human level. No tricks, no gimmicks.
I totally disagree with it being seen for who was in it. Niether Murray, Coppolla and especially Scarlett are (were) big box office draws. So that theory just flew out the window.
Sideways is a similiar small piece without any credible 'Stars' and was one of the best films that year for alot of people but like LiT, some people just did not get it.
Maybe you don't like the film so much; Because of who is in it and who made it. That may not be so far-fetched if you are going to throw it out to the ones who do like it.
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200 reviews at Rotten have it at a staggering 95% Fresh Rating. That says something; you are in the minority on this one !
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Of course it's all personal opinion ! There are a few of us here that always have great debates on film! You are one of them !
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Still missing the 'politics' angle on LiT; but alas.
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Out of all of the films released in 2003 I found LiT to be contender. The films that year I loved were:
Top 20 for me (2003) (In no particular order)
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl
X2: X-Men United
Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines
Seabiscuit
The Last Samurai
Cold Mountain
Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World
Mystic River
The Texas Chainsaw Massacre
Shanghai Knights
Kill Bill Vol. 1
Open Range
Identity
28 Days Later
Lost in Translation
Tears of the Sun
The Missing
21 Grams
Dark Blue
In fact; I'd be curious to see your Top 20 films of that year to get a perspective of where we are coming from as I just read whereas you 'hated' American Beauty ?
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?page=1&view=releasedate&view2=domestic&yr=2003&p=.htm
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Still missing the 'politics' angle on LiT; but alas.
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Out of all of the films released in 2003 I found LiT to be contender. The films that year I loved were:
Top 20 for me (2003) (In no particular order)
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl
X2: X-Men United
Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines
Seabiscuit
The Last Samurai
Cold Mountain
Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World
Mystic River
The Texas Chainsaw Massacre
Shanghai Knights
Kill Bill Vol. 1
Open Range
Identity
28 Days Later
Lost in Translation
Tears of the Sun
The Missing
21 Grams
Dark Blue
In fact; I'd be curious to see your Top 20 films of that year to get a perspective of where we are coming from as I just read whereas you 'hated' American Beauty ?
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?page=1&view=releasedate&view2=domestic&yr=2003&p=.htm
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Rather than the 10,000 word reply I had written I'll keep it simple...
No I wasn't sitting in the dark with the old man, but neither were you so we really don't know for sure, do we? It certainly wouldn't be the first time Hollywood so graciously pushed someone on us (come on-Matt and Ben???). Yeah, I do believe (though we will never know obviously) that had this movie been made by someone who's last name wasn't Copolla it wouldn't gotten 1/4 of the attention.
The theory I spoke of and you took the time to carefully pooh pooh on is hardly one I pulled out of my own ass, but one I do agree with. Just like some people have felt the need to rationalize Boreback Mtn's Oscar loss by blaming homophobic Oscar voters (funny) maybe those in the anti-LiT camp need to rationalize WHY LiT got the press it did. Do I honestly believe it? Yea I do... why? Because at the end of the day I found everything about LiT to be mediocore. So for me, there has to be a larger reason why it was lauded and for you, who laud it, surely I must be blind or insane to think it was part of the Hollywood machine.
Critics reviews mean nothing. It could have a 100% fresh rating and I'd still say it sucked. As far as CRITICS go, yeah I'm very happily in the minority on this one. As far as PEOPLE go, and they're the ones that make a movie money, I'm in a much larger pool. For every one postitive review from a non-paid critic I can find one negative. Because the movie resonated with a small group of professional movie geeks and wanna bes (sorry that's how I feel about most critics) doesn't mean it will to your common Joe or Sue. For me, it did nothing.
I don't like or dislike it because of who made it or who's in it... that's not what I was saying. I happen to like Murray and Copolla (not SJ though). The movie, for me, was ok. I saw it once. Don't ever need to see it again. Do I think it's much improved script deserved an Oscar? Absolutely not. Did I think Sofia Copolla showed growth and improvement as a director? Certainly. I am totally in her camp, believe it or not. But when it was all over and the credits rolled, did both my wife and I look at each other and just say "hmmm... ok?". Yes, we did. It didn't speak to either of us. We were left very unmoved and uninterested.
I write everyday. I read everyday. I've been throttled on Netflix for renting an absurd amount of movies in a month. I say this because I am hardly unintelligent, uninformed...nor do I lack imagination or appreciating for "something different". I pick up a book or turn on a movie wanting to like it. I start liking it before anything flickers on my screen or before I read a single word. As it progresses, I start deducting points. (And yes, I have a lot of time on my hands!)
I admit up front I like a lot of crap and freely admit its crap but it speaks to me. LOL. It's my crap. But no matter how hard I wanted to like LiT, I found nothing to latch onto... I understood the characters' feeling of being lost (who hasn't felt that way? hell I felt that way for 6 months in Hamburg performing Phantom and no one in that damned country would speak English to me!)... that said, I should have related immensely to LiT and I didn't. There are a lot of reasons this may be so, some on my end some on Sofia's end. But regardless, it didn't speak to me.
We have differing opinions and that's one of the things that makes art the coolest thing in the universe. 10 people can see the same movie, image and have 10 different reactions to it. I only hope to be able to have people one day so passionately loving and hating work at the same time. We should all be so lucky.
No I wasn't sitting in the dark with the old man, but neither were you so we really don't know for sure, do we? It certainly wouldn't be the first time Hollywood so graciously pushed someone on us (come on-Matt and Ben???). Yeah, I do believe (though we will never know obviously) that had this movie been made by someone who's last name wasn't Copolla it wouldn't gotten 1/4 of the attention.
The theory I spoke of and you took the time to carefully pooh pooh on is hardly one I pulled out of my own ass, but one I do agree with. Just like some people have felt the need to rationalize Boreback Mtn's Oscar loss by blaming homophobic Oscar voters (funny) maybe those in the anti-LiT camp need to rationalize WHY LiT got the press it did. Do I honestly believe it? Yea I do... why? Because at the end of the day I found everything about LiT to be mediocore. So for me, there has to be a larger reason why it was lauded and for you, who laud it, surely I must be blind or insane to think it was part of the Hollywood machine.
Critics reviews mean nothing. It could have a 100% fresh rating and I'd still say it sucked. As far as CRITICS go, yeah I'm very happily in the minority on this one. As far as PEOPLE go, and they're the ones that make a movie money, I'm in a much larger pool. For every one postitive review from a non-paid critic I can find one negative. Because the movie resonated with a small group of professional movie geeks and wanna bes (sorry that's how I feel about most critics) doesn't mean it will to your common Joe or Sue. For me, it did nothing.
I don't like or dislike it because of who made it or who's in it... that's not what I was saying. I happen to like Murray and Copolla (not SJ though). The movie, for me, was ok. I saw it once. Don't ever need to see it again. Do I think it's much improved script deserved an Oscar? Absolutely not. Did I think Sofia Copolla showed growth and improvement as a director? Certainly. I am totally in her camp, believe it or not. But when it was all over and the credits rolled, did both my wife and I look at each other and just say "hmmm... ok?". Yes, we did. It didn't speak to either of us. We were left very unmoved and uninterested.
I write everyday. I read everyday. I've been throttled on Netflix for renting an absurd amount of movies in a month. I say this because I am hardly unintelligent, uninformed...nor do I lack imagination or appreciating for "something different". I pick up a book or turn on a movie wanting to like it. I start liking it before anything flickers on my screen or before I read a single word. As it progresses, I start deducting points. (And yes, I have a lot of time on my hands!)
I admit up front I like a lot of crap and freely admit its crap but it speaks to me. LOL. It's my crap. But no matter how hard I wanted to like LiT, I found nothing to latch onto... I understood the characters' feeling of being lost (who hasn't felt that way? hell I felt that way for 6 months in Hamburg performing Phantom and no one in that damned country would speak English to me!)... that said, I should have related immensely to LiT and I didn't. There are a lot of reasons this may be so, some on my end some on Sofia's end. But regardless, it didn't speak to me.
We have differing opinions and that's one of the things that makes art the coolest thing in the universe. 10 people can see the same movie, image and have 10 different reactions to it. I only hope to be able to have people one day so passionately loving and hating work at the same time. We should all be so lucky.
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John_Hudson said:
Hehe sorry John! You must have read my rambling 10000000 word post before I deleted it and refined it! LOL. I hadn't meant for it to sound so pissed off because I wasn't! LOL. And yea, we totally agree on the awesome movie debates.
Let me take a look at the box office for that year and I'll tell you what films I really liked that year. I think with the exception of a few ours are very similar.
And yea, for me American Beauty was kind of the same. I saw it on DVD after the awards and hype and was just very underwhelmed by it. I watched it twice (not in a row) because I was sure I had to have missed something... but I was left just feeling that it wanted to be very deep and just wasn't (for me). I thought it was beautifully shot and directed. I loved his stage productions, but I just didn't like the story/script/characters. I had one moment I laughed and got something out of...Benning vacuuming. But the rest of it was just bland and dull to me.
Anyway, have to take care of my sick puppy and then I'll look at the b.o. list.
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My top 20 for 2003, in no order:
Return of the King
Finding Nemo
Seabiscuit
Mystic River
Texas Chainsaw Massacre (I'd say the best horror movie of the year)
Big Fish (ironically, BF has the same pro/con debate...this one speaks to me though and I am in the pro camp)
Identity
28 Days Later (second best horror movie of the year)
Cabin Fever
Freaky Friday
In America
X-2
Calendar Girls
Love Actually (very flawed but I still find it charming. one of my guilty pleasures)
definitely the BEST movie of 2003 though was A View from the Top. Pure genius. I kid of course. LOL.
The one I go back and forth on is Pirates. It was good. I enjoyed it. A little long, but did I like it so much because it was truly a good movie or because it was based on a Disney ride and Haunted Mansion sucked so bad? I'd probably put it up there, but for the same genre type I thought X-2 and King were leagues better.
Return of the King
Finding Nemo
Seabiscuit
Mystic River
Texas Chainsaw Massacre (I'd say the best horror movie of the year)
Big Fish (ironically, BF has the same pro/con debate...this one speaks to me though and I am in the pro camp)
Identity
28 Days Later (second best horror movie of the year)
Cabin Fever
Freaky Friday
In America
X-2
Calendar Girls
Love Actually (very flawed but I still find it charming. one of my guilty pleasures)
definitely the BEST movie of 2003 though was A View from the Top. Pure genius. I kid of course. LOL.
The one I go back and forth on is Pirates. It was good. I enjoyed it. A little long, but did I like it so much because it was truly a good movie or because it was based on a Disney ride and Haunted Mansion sucked so bad? I'd probably put it up there, but for the same genre type I thought X-2 and King were leagues better.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
I'm not crapping on your opinion; I may laugh at it or scoff it but it is yours and I respect that.
But to the point; when someone says they did not like a film and moves to the angle that it was politically motivated or that it was because of the names involved it leaves a sour taste on the opinion for me. Instead of discounting the work itself, it becomes a scapegoat.
Better put, instead of a simple negative review being backed up with any merit it becomes a ***** fest about nepotism or Hollywoods hidden agenda. But yes, I understand your take on the film is more than that.
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RT
I don't follow what the critics like or do not but used the number as an example of 'My lord; everyone liked it'. Usually, their meters are generally spot on for me.
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As far as liking crap ? I know all too well.
Dawn of the Dead 04 (along with Kill Bill 2) is my favorite film of 2004. Tell that to the Film Lovers Club.
But to the point; when someone says they did not like a film and moves to the angle that it was politically motivated or that it was because of the names involved it leaves a sour taste on the opinion for me. Instead of discounting the work itself, it becomes a scapegoat.
Better put, instead of a simple negative review being backed up with any merit it becomes a ***** fest about nepotism or Hollywoods hidden agenda. But yes, I understand your take on the film is more than that.
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RT
I don't follow what the critics like or do not but used the number as an example of 'My lord; everyone liked it'. Usually, their meters are generally spot on for me.
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As far as liking crap ? I know all too well.
Dawn of the Dead 04 (along with Kill Bill 2) is my favorite film of 2004. Tell that to the Film Lovers Club.
Ought2bCommitted
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Hey I liked Dawn of the Dead '04!!!! I think it lost the cool "wow we can live in a mall" feeling from the 70s version, but I liked it overall. There were some cool things in there. I think I was also just relieved it wasn't as bad as it could have been...like say, The Fog...which you HAVE to rent, John. You must watch it. It blows my mind that the guy who made Stigmata made this and just how awful the script was. Truly awful. I know you like Carpenter too, and I think you liked his original if I remember correctly. Its funny to see what JC will do for a buck these days. Every interview with him money always comes up. LOL.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
I did rent the THE FOG and what crap that was. Just so bad.
Selma is hot though.
Selma is hot though.
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John_Hudson said:
Ohhh yeah!!!! She is. But wtf-why was she in a tee shirt and panties in her kitchen around her kid? Hello Oedipus???? LOL.
I don't understand why they made the insane changes they did.
Blaine
Mr. Hollywood
I'd like to get in on this because I found LiT incredibly boring. I am also one of those that hated American Beauty.John_Hudson said:
My top 20 of 2003 in no particular order is:
Return of the King
Finding Nemo
Identity
Open Range
Bad Santa
Love Actually
Matchstick Men
The Missing
Confidence
The Cooler
The Hunted
The Last Samurai
Mystic River
Once Upon a Time in Mexico
Out of Time
Paycheck
Runaway Jury
Master & Commander
Seabiscuit
Tears of the Sun
I find it baffling that someone could like LiT but be bored by The Constant Gardener.
CallaghanFilms
Veteran
The Callaghan Top 10 Films Of 2003:
#01 Finding Nemo
#02 Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World
#03 The Last Samurai
#04 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
#05 Identity
#06 Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl
#07 Big Fish
#08 Seabiscuit
#09 In America
#10 Kill Bill Vol. 1
Not only is Coppola the lesser's flick 'lost' on my list, but Mystic Riveris as well. I am in the small camp that feels it was not worthy of Eastwood.
#01 Finding Nemo
#02 Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World
#03 The Last Samurai
#04 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
#05 Identity
#06 Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl
#07 Big Fish
#08 Seabiscuit
#09 In America
#10 Kill Bill Vol. 1
Not only is Coppola the lesser's flick 'lost' on my list, but Mystic Riveris as well. I am in the small camp that feels it was not worthy of Eastwood.
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Chad, I am impressed and surprised by your inclusion of In America. Very cool! We have very similar tastes in those picks. I liked M&C and Last Sumari but didn't love them. The stunning acting from the male and female leads in Mystic River saved it for me from the often ploddiness that I felt was uncharacteristic of Eastwood.