Looking to get into small film making

R

Rockwood610

Member
Hey everyone,

I am new to this forum, and I hope someone can help me. I am very new to prosumer film related topics, and I am looking to start production with my small team this summer.

Here is my current setup:
I have a Windows XP based computer with an AMD Dual-core processor with Sony Creative software Vegas 8/DVD Architect, Acid Pro 6, and Cinescore. I currently am going through training to learn the ins and outs of these programs. I have Waves Diamond Bundle for audio FX and Mastering (witch I am still learning to use as well), and I do a lot of editing for family videos and special occasions.

I am currently looking to get into documentary type projects with sit down interviews and even small independent type film projects. I am working with a pretty small budget and buying equipment a piece at a time as we write some scripts. I am starting out with the entry level prosumer camera, The Canon GL2. I know there are better cameras on the market, but again... beginners here with low budget.

We will be recording all our own music as well as using Sony Cinescore for our films and projects. However, I am not sure about a few things.

For indy films, what exactly is needed to record audio? Our first project will be shot in 2 environments. Indoor in some sort of apartment, and outdoor in a local park. I am not sure what all is need to capture the dialog audio from the actors.

I currently have a small 8 track digital recorder. Its the Fostex MR-8. It can run on batteries, but there is no phatom power.

1. Can this be used to record the dialog audio? We are on a low budget, so since I already have one of these, I was wondering if it can be used if we get good mics.

2. If we can use it, are there any portable/battery operated phantom power connections for the mics we will need? We are also looking into getting the canon MA-30 XLR attachment for the GL2. Should we record directly into the camera for the audio?

3. I currently have a MXL V63M Condenser studio mic. Can this be good to capture the dialog audio? I am assuming not since it is for more of the singing/voice overs in a studio. But like I said, we are pretty new at this and were wondering what we would need to mic everything.

What kind of booms, mics, and accessories should we look into. We have about $1,000.00 to work with right now, and by June when we start filming, we will have a bit more. Please help... I am not sure where to look for info on film making, and I am really new at all of this. Thanks in advanced for replies.
 
Rockwood610 said:
For indy films, what exactly is needed to record audio?
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The same things needed to record large-budget studio features: microphones, cables and recorders. The forum stickes are a wealth of useful information regarding mics, accessories, and technique.

I'm unfamiliar with the MR-8, but you should be able to record dialogue onto it. Whether or not the tracks will synch up with the picture... that's another matter altogether. Shoot double-system synch test: slate the camera and recorder using a clap-board, continue rolling for as long as possible, and then tail-slate before stopping. Be sure to use the on-camera mic to grab a guide track. Bring the video and MR-8 audio into your video editing software and synch up the head-slate. If the tail slate matches, then you're system will probably stay in synch. If not, then consider either shooting single-system (inadvisable with the GL2) or using a different double-system recorder.

Phantom power is available on most mixers and mic preamplifiers. PSC makes a battery-powered in-line phantom power supply that will do the job nicely. If the MR-8 doesn't have built-in mic preamps, then you'll need either an external preamp or an external mixer with built-in preamps.

After a quick look at the Fostex website, it doesn't look like the MR-8 can be used over-the-shoulder ENG-style. In other words, you're going to need a sound mixer and a boom operator.

The MXL V63M is unlikely to work very well as a boom mic. The forum stickies will give you plenty of suggestions regarding entry-level boom mics.

I haven't personally used the GL2's XLR adapter, so perhaps someone else can help with that. Even when shooting single-system with a Canon camera, I always run my Fostex FR-2 as a double-system backup. 9 times out of 10, we wind up swapping the Canon tracks for the FR-2's in post. Audio simply isn't a design priority for Canon.

If you live in or near a large city, you probably have access to a decently stocked A/V rental house. For low-budget productions, its often far more cost-effective to rent rather than buy the audio equipment. Why buy what you can afford when you can rent what you want?
 
I'm going to be safe and recommend reading through Dan Brockett's articles here: http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/fcp_homepage_index.html
Location sound: basics and beyond and As I hear it: choosing the right microphone are both great articles that could potentially help you a lot. He's a member here, and might chime in to help. Of course reading the stickies will definitely not hurt either if you haven't already given them a look.
When you say 'we,' does that mean you are going to have a crew? Having someone with a good ear(can be trained with practice) dedicated to running sound is your optimum setup, IMO. Of course, that isn't always possible.
$1000 I would say is a safe amount to work with if that is dedicated to audio, especially since you have the MR-8 already, and thus will probably not need a Beachtek or equivalent.

But, most importantly, don't buy something just because it is cheap, believe me, it will only lead to heartbreak. As the adage goes, "Good, cheap, fast: pick any two."
And also, almost as important, bad gear in good hands will be as good or better than good gear in bad hands. This can not be stressed enough.
 
I'm going to recommend you get out of the mindset that you have to do everything yourself -- own your own camera, do your own cinematography, own your own sound gear, etc. That's what your crew is for.

Find a good sound guy willing to work on your project. Chances are he's already got decent gear, and he knows how to use it. For that matter, find a good DP who has a better camera than you do -- and is more skilled with it than you are.

You should focus on writing, directing, editing, or whatever your strong suit is. You'll get the best overall results by finding talented, skilled, experienced people to do all the other stuff. And many times you can get them to work either for free or for deferred pay.

You don't have to re-invent the wheel. Just get a crew.

Good luck!
 
Wow guys, thanks a ton. My biggest problem is, I don't know a lot of the good companies or even the proper gear that exists. I'll def. start looking at the articles right away.

As far as the good/bad gear in the good/bad hands, believe me I know. I have boughten some of the lowest end gear and took my time to study it, and the results were fantastic. And I am assuimg that Dustin P Wilson-Henry, you said I wouldn't need a Beachtek due to already having the MR-8. Dies this mean you would suggest the MR-8 is good enough to record our audio?

chapelgrovefilms said:
I'm going to recommend you get out of the mindset that you have to do everything yourself -- own your own camera, do your own cinematography, own your own sound gear, etc. That's what your crew is for
Click to expand...

I am not trying to do EVERYTHING myself, I am just the only one so far that knows a lot about the gear... so far. I only have 2 or 3 other guys working with me right now. We are just starting out, and as we go along we will learn off of each other. But my strong points are recording and editing, and thats what I am mainly doing. But I need to know what gear I need to accomplish this. The other guys will be doing all the writing, directing, and acting. Our first two projects are pretty small with only a couple of us acting in it and bring in a couple other outsiders for other parts.

Oh, and I forgot to mention this. I started out with a basic program called Pinnalce Studio about 4 years ago and have worked my way up. Pinnacle had some great FX plugins and add ons. Sony Vegas has some good color corrections and what not, but does anyone know of any good FX plugins for Vegas? Does the Adobe products work for it?
 
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Beachtek DXA-6VU $360
oktava mk012 w/ hyper cap
k-tek kssm
Rycote Baby Ball Gag (20mm)
Jammer (for bbg)
gitzo 12' carbon fiber pole
Sound Devices Mix Pre
Mixer bag
Sony 7506 headphones
Good quality XLR Cables(not cheap guitar center)
 
The gear package Mike's described will give you plenty of bang for your buck, Rockwood.

The only thing that seems absent, to my eye, is a short-shotgun mic. Depending on the framing of your shots and the geography of your exteriors, you may find that a hypercardioid provides somewhat noisey tracks. If the "local park" is right next to a busy highway, you may need to go for something with a tighter pickup pattern.
 
Where are you at that you can pick up that package for $1000?
I think the MR-8 doesn't suck is all I really meant. And it is probably ever so slightly better than Beachtek-ing into the GL2. Either one used properly will do well enough a job. I just don't see buying a Beachtek adapter, when you will eventually outgrow it, as making much sense, if you already have the MR-8. That said with the caveat you have someone to operate the MR-8, as it isn't the most portable of devices. The gear package recommendation was great though, even though I've never used an mk-012, I've heard about great results. Everything else in the package is spot on excellent, albeit above your $1000 budget.
 
you could hold off on the mix pre at first, add it later to save $$ (I would highly recc getting it sooner though).

It is a pain to sync seperate sound when you are first starting out, but if you have the patience...
 
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S Muir is right about the shotgun.

The reason I left it off is that any shotgun needs a zepplin (cause you got it to use outside right...) So you need to get a k-tek k-zepp and a shotgun (rode ntg1 or at4073a or better $$) and that is another $600-$800+. Just add that later. At least the Oktava w/ BBG and jammer will work very well in wind. Just mic it close (1'-2' away).
 
I actually will concede that it is very difficult to sync double-system audio at first, so perhaps the MR-8 may not be your best option. But if the trouble of syncing isn't too much, it will do a well enough job. Since you already own it, give dual system sync a shot, if it isn't for you, go with the Beachtek adapter. Be sure to use a slate or loud hand clap, and record a reference track on the camera audio.

On another note, there is a good chance you can find a lot of great older gear used. Except I wouldn't trust used oktavas, I know of a lot of used ones from Guitar center that were knock-offs;fortunately new ones are almost certain to be legitimate, especially from a reputable dealer. I know plenty of people have good success with the sound room for them. I'd order one for myself right now if I wasn't so determined to save a bit for an MBHO/Schoeps 441/AKG ULS, all of which could potentially fall into your lap for great prices used.

Sorry for that personal sidetrack. Good luck. And take note a lot of guys here have been doing sound for a lot longer than myself, if that means anything.
 
Hey it means plenty to me that any one is even replying. We could use all the help we can get.

I have done double synching plenty of times. I am pretty handing with audio editing as well. Done a lot of puchin is, copy and pasting sections of tracks to fix mistakes in an audio studio, ect.

I have done doucle synching on my computer before, but not yet with the MR8. I 'll have to run some tests first. But I cliped a crappy computer mic to my shirt once, and set my camera up and did a sit down interview for a project I did for a friend. I recorded the mic audio directly to the pc through Sony Acid, and then used Sony Vegas to Synch it up. Worked very well. So I am pretty comfortable with audio synching. Just as long as the MR8 is consistant.

I'll try and look for the package items you have mentioned Mike. And thanks a million!

For a shotgun mic, what about Audio-Technica AT875

Does anyone have suggestions on FX add ons for Vegas 8? Or was that listed in the package you mentioned?
 
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I actualy read that article on the mics. Thats where I found the Audio Technica.

Would the Rode NTG1 be good for our both indoor and outdoor shots? If I can narrow it down to one really good mic, I would be willing to spend a little more on it.

I was looking at the Audio Technica mic because I heard the samples off that site and it sounds pretty good. But I would like a good indoor/out mic.
 
no way to narrow it down. In order to get one mic that will do everything, you need to spend $1300 for sanken cs3e and it is still not ideal. Just get the oktava, kssm, bbg and jammer and use it inside and outside (no fur inside). Add a shotgun and zepplin later a second mic. It will have to be about a foot closer than a shotgun (1'-2' away), but that is where you try to get any mic anyway. You will be suprised how close you can get the mic, drop it into the frame and bring it slightly back up out of the shot. Tilt the camera down if you need too. If you can't get the mic close enough, you probably have too much headroom in the shot.
 
Thanks a million for all the replies guys. I'll be sure to come on here with some updates on our project as we get things rolling.

I'm going to start shopping around soon and hope we can get some great gear. Thanks alot!
 
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