Looking for new computer for CS6 Production Premium

P

pifemaster

Well-known member
I just purchased a Panasonic AC160A and Adobe CS6 production Premium. I want to purchase a new desktop to properly edit 1080-60p video. I built an AlienWare system (see .pdf attachmet below signature) and was wanting input from those of you that are more familiar with video editing than I am (that's pretty much ANY one).


I would love feedback and possible other options.

Thank you,
Robert Pfeifer
Pifemaster Productions
www.pifemaster.com

View attachment Computer.pdf
 
Are you able to build a PC yourself, or have a friend or family member build it? You could easily achieve the specs in that Alienware for much less.
 
That looks like a good basic architecture. But I think you can get the same box put together for about 1/2 that price. Say $1,500.

We had this discussin in another thread. I have never spent more than about $500 to $750 for the base unit/box.

You want to get the CPU, basic HDD, case, maybe the power supply, and OS from someone like Dell, who can buy those things at wholesale vs. retail. Then add your own additional RAM, HDD's, maybe the graphics card, etc. at lower than the premium cost the manufacturers charge you for the add ons.

For example, Dell had an i7 machine with that same CPU for sale a few weeks ago for $1,000 - $200 rebate = $800 with a 24" IPS monitor. The monitor itself was worth $350, so call it $500 for the base machine.

If you were to buy the same CPU at the time from Newegg, it was $350. Add the Win 7 OS license and you are at $500.

My strategy would be to watch the Dell deals, coupons, etc. Target the case you want to get the slots you need, etc. Build it, save it, rebuild it at Dell while you are signed in to your ID. (They track what you do with your ID and will "pop" special offers when you go in, then leave a page without buying. Targeted RDMS marketing.)

Get the CPU with the 4GB or 6GB or whatever RAM, basic 640GB HDD, etc. Maybe the graphics card or monitor if you need them. Try to get the RAM in just 3 chips if you can

Then, pull 1/2 the RAM if you have to (assuming you have 6 sticks), and add 3x8GB of RAM for $180 (I did that recently for a 3 year old i7 920, have 27GB with 3x8GB and 3x1GB)

Add two, 2GB Seagate Barracuda HDD's at $120 each = $240 in RAID 0 for the "scratch"/working disks (my 3 year old, $500 Dell has a RAID card it came with). Add another 2GB drive at $120 for the Project/Asset disk. Use the existing 640GB for the OS drive (or maybe go SSD - least important option at start.)

Buy the GTX580 or similar graphics card for $300 -$400+ if necessary (or upgrade at Dell - depends on price point. Pull and sell the installed card it ships with? Sell teh extra RAM?)

Upgrade the power supply to an 800 Watt Gold 80% power supply for $100 (if the Dell is less than 450 watt, You will need it with the graphics card and HDD's

Totals:

Base CPU, case, OS, etc: $500
RAM, 24GB: $180 (actual RAM installed 2months ago from Newegg)
3x2GB HDD's $360 (actual Seagate 2GB, near top performance at tomshardware database)
Graphics GTX580: $360 (Cheapest 580 at Newegg, or go with a 2 fan or 3 fan version of the 470 or 570 at $300)
Power supply, 850 watt: $100

Total: $1,500

That will be a killer base box, hitting the 80%20% rule - getting the just near top tier components at an effective price point, rather than paying double or triple for taht last 5% to 10% of performance. But you don't have to do a build from scratch. Just a little research and a little customization.

If you want to convince yourself, look at the specs of the top performing boxes in this CS5.5 Premiere Pro benchmark database. these are 500+ reakl world end user boxes timed on teh same performance set:

www.ppbm5.com

The core traits are: 16GB +- of RAM, multiple HDD's in RAID, decent 300+- CUDA core GPU with DDRM 5 RAMM of 1GB or more.

You can look at the marginal value of increased GPU performance here:

http://www.studio1productions.com/Articles/PremiereCS5.htm

Here's Tom's Hardware Benchmarks on the HDD's. I have 2 of teh 2GB Seagate showing up on Tuesday from Amazon at $120 each. They are second only to the Western Digital Velociraptors at overall read/write throughput for HDD's

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/hdd-charts-2012/-34-Desktop-Performance,2930.html



Good luck, have fun!

Michael
 
Before i went mac...I've built through the years four power machines. 3 for gaming and one for use as a server. The one rule of thumb is to get a full tower, the best ram you can get and a powerful PSU. At least one that is 1100w or more. The more your machine demands juice the more the need of a decent PSU. Don't go cheap. One bad blowout of a psu will result a short to your motherboard, graphics card and sometimes the ram. I also had my machines overclocked. If your not familiar to what the premium items to get...ask a hardcore gamer. They will water cool their CPU and also use Arctic Silver on it. If your lost...just go buy a HP setup that is certified for programs like AVID or Adobe to be safe.
 
unadog said:
That looks like a good basic architecture. But I think you can get the same box put together for about 1/2 that price. Say $1,500.

We had this discussin in another thread. I have never spent more than about $500 to $750 for the base unit/box.

You want to get the CPU, basic HDD, case, maybe the power supply, and OS from someone like Dell, who can buy those things at wholesale vs. retail. Then add your own additional RAM, HDD's, maybe the graphics card, etc. at lower than the premium cost the manufacturers charge you for the add ons.

For example, Dell had an i7 machine with that same CPU for sale a few weeks ago for $1,000 - $200 rebate = $800 with a 24" IPS monitor. The monitor itself was worth $350, so call it $500 for the base machine.

If you were to buy the same CPU at the time from Newegg, it was $350. Add the Win 7 OS license and you are at $500.

My strategy would be to watch the Dell deals, coupons, etc. Target the case you want to get the slots you need, etc. Build it, save it, rebuild it at Dell while you are signed in to your ID. (They track what you do with your ID and will "pop" special offers when you go in, then leave a page without buying. Targeted RDMS marketing.)

Get the CPU with the 4GB or 6GB or whatever RAM, basic 640GB HDD, etc. Maybe the graphics card or monitor if you need them. Try to get the RAM in just 3 chips if you can

Then, pull 1/2 the RAM if you have to (assuming you have 6 sticks), and add 3x8GB of RAM for $180 (I did that recently for a 3 year old i7 920, have 27GB with 3x8GB and 3x1GB)

Add two, 2GB Seagate Barracuda HDD's at $120 each = $240 in RAID 0 for the "scratch"/working disks (my 3 year old, $500 Dell has a RAID card it came with). Add another 2GB drive at $120 for the Project/Asset disk. Use the existing 640GB for the OS drive (or maybe go SSD - least important option at start.)

Buy the GTX580 or similar graphics card for $300 -$400+ if necessary (or upgrade at Dell - depends on price point. Pull and sell the installed card it ships with? Sell teh extra RAM?)

Upgrade the power supply to an 800 Watt Gold 80% power supply for $100 (if the Dell is less than 450 watt, You will need it with the graphics card and HDD's

Totals:

Base CPU, case, OS, etc: $500
RAM, 24GB: $180 (actual RAM installed 2months ago from Newegg)
3x2GB HDD's $360 (actual Seagate 2GB, near top performance at tomshardware database)
Graphics GTX580: $360 (Cheapest 580 at Newegg, or go with a 2 fan or 3 fan version of the 470 or 570 at $300)
Power supply, 850 watt: $100

Total: $1,500

That will be a killer base box, hitting the 80%20% rule - getting the just near top tier components at an effective price point, rather than paying double or triple for taht last 5% to 10% of performance. But you don't have to do a build from scratch. Just a little research and a little customization.

If you want to convince yourself, look at the specs of the top performing boxes in this CS5.5 Premiere Pro benchmark database. these are 500+ reakl world end user boxes timed on teh same performance set:

www.ppbm5.com

The core traits are: 16GB +- of RAM, multiple HDD's in RAID, decent 300+- CUDA core GPU with DDRM 5 RAMM of 1GB or more.

You can look at the marginal value of increased GPU performance here:

http://www.studio1productions.com/Articles/PremiereCS5.htm

Here's Tom's Hardware Benchmarks on the HDD's. I have 2 of teh 2GB Seagate showing up on Tuesday from Amazon at $120 each. They are second only to the Western Digital Velociraptors at overall read/write throughput for HDD's

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/hdd-charts-2012/-34-Desktop-Performance,2930.html



Good luck, have fun!

Michael
Click to expand...
That’s some great information.
 
Robert, go over to avadirect.com with you specs and configure it online with similar components. I have used them for several builds and they are a top notch company.
 
THANK YOU TO EVERYONE FOR YOUR INPUT!

Now... This post brings up a followup question:
mac pros are showing up monday I suggest you check them out
Click to expand...

A good friend of mine (a professional wedding photographer) suggested that I make the move from PC to Mac. I looked at the mac pro 8 core machines online and when I compare the specs to the AlienWare PC that I configured, it seems the Mac still comes up short on performace (at least on paper).

So the next question is: For HD video editing with Adobe CS6 Production Premium, should I be looking at a PC or a Mac?

I have always used PC, but I am not against change if there is a benefit. However, I did scan through this post http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?284032-my-reasons-for-moving-away-from-apple and it seems that the general concensus is that PC may be the way to go.

I guess I should have asked this question before creating this original post, but I don't want to waste time looking at various PC options if the best way to go is Mac.

Thank you,
Robert Pfeifer
Pifemaster Productions
www.pifemaster.com
 
You are not going to get a rational answer from anyone on that question. Mac people will never back down and PC people will only point to better specs/lower cost. I would suggest that if you are going to get a mac then abandon CS6 and use mac software. The FCPX software is so cheap it almost balances out the cost of the machine and will run at a better performance than the specs suggest. As to whether or not you should use FCPX, you won't get a straight answer on that either. The passionate mac camp is split on that one too.

Ultimately I would suggest it doesn't matter. If it can stitch clips together, process audio and handle all the standard effects stuff it's going to result in a movie. If you want to use CS6 then I would suggest a PC, build one better than the recommended specs focussing on CPU, mercury enabled graphics card and RAM upgraded to the max. Also look at the storage options (if you can afford it SSD for you OS hard drive is amazing) and don't forget to invest in a decent monitor (although that's easily enough to upgrade later if you need to spread the cost). Upgradeability, performance and price are the PC hallmarks. Stability, idiot-proofing and social status are the mac selling points. Both do the job just fine.
 
I’m all Mac because I was a Final Cut Pro user. I’m not a FCP 7 user anymore so my options are much bigger now. I love my Macs. They are very reliable and very easy to use. I have a Mac Pro, Mac Mini and a Mac Book Pro. Also a G5 in the garage that was replaced by the Mini. Love them. Would I buy another Mac? Maybe, but not for editing. I would build a kick ass Windows box like the gaming computer I built my son. Windows 7 seems to be very stable and PC components are way cheaper than buying a Mac Pro. If they still make them. We will know next week supposedly from WWDC. My editing computer is just that. I don’t use it for anything else other than post production. The mini is my home computer. That little guy is cool. I might feel different if I was using one computer for everything and I don’t recommend that.
Either way you can't go wrong. That’s the beauty of it.
 
What everyone else has said about MAC vs. PC here so far is very level headed, professional, and correct. They will both get the job done. If you have PC experience though, and are concerned with a really good machine at a good price point, the PC will win out. The specs I laid out are about what you will get at 2x the cost on the Mac, or thw Alienware as you saw.

The importance is finding the 80% to 90% of performance, without chasing the ultimate, where you will pay 3x to 5x as much for that little extra edge, at a huge cost in dollars and complexity. And risk of using ther newest technology. Think Aristotle or the Buddha - the "middle path." :)

Not the absoulte best, newest, fastest overclocked processor, but the one in almsot the top tier, etc. You have to be realistic about how often and for how long you are pushing your machine to the max. And whether the software/CPU/GPU/HDD's/RAID are all balanced to let you use each system to the max.

How much RAM per CPU core? How many processes do you need to start - 3, or 5, or 10 Exports at the same time - to use all of the cores to the maximum? Is Adobe capable of full parallel processing for that specific function, or is it still limited to 1 core? Multiple CPU's have a 25%+ overhead just monitoring and syncing, and can actually slow down some software not coded to use them.

How many GPU's per core? Which version of Mercury Hardware acceleration - CS6, CS6.1, or CS6.5. In After Effects, Speedgrade, Premiere, Media Encoder? All at the same time?

Which effects do you use in After Effects? Which are GPU accelerated? How much?

Unless you want to spend the time to obsess about all of those details, and earn an engineering degree in the process, go for the clear, down the center, 80% to 90%, already here, not promised in 6 months, machine/graphics card/etc. Or spend the big bucks and buy a $8,000 machine so you don't have to think about all teh engineering details.

The "middle path" is the 24GB-48GB RAM, RAID 0 or RAID 10 scratch/works/render drives, 480 CUDA +- GPU, 3.4 Ghz Ivy Bridge i7 (instead of dual Xeon), etc. solid machine, without pushing overclocking to the point that you get crashes, have Beta GPU drivers, etc.
 
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Here are some resources for more fact based (data driven!) research.


Look at the "beta" site for PPBM6.com, the Premiere Pro Benchmark Database for CS6. These are the folks with more than 500+ machines in their CS5 and CS5.5 databases, all with benchmarks on the same test suite. They are going to add Red footage at 4:2:2, etc. to their CS6 benchmark suite for their new database.


They have some general observations on systems design on this page, toward the bottom.

http://ppbm6.com/Test.html


"With CS6 the practical minimum memory is 8 or 12 GB of RAM, 16 or 24 GB is suggested for most users. For heavy multitasking or dynamic linking, 32 or 48 GB is optimal. Here is a Resource Monitor plot of memory usage while doing a simple PPBM5 MPEG2-DVD encoding in Premiere. This was a capture at a peak of memory usage. Notice that there are no Hard Memory Faults (requiring writing out and later reading the Paging file) but Premiere by itself is using more than 6 GB (this system had 12 GB)."



There are some more general hardware recommendatios at the bottom of this page:

http://ppbm6.com/Background.html


"Performance gains of 50% or more when doubling memory are not uncommon.The impact of clock speed decreases with more memory installed. "




This page has "planning and building a new NLE system." There are two interesting parts. The first is the "25 Top Bang forthe Bucks" systems. These are about "value for the money", or cost/benefit analysis. These are from their CS5.5 database of actual machines and their benchmark performance. Unfortunately, it is a year old.

But you can browse teh actual CS5.5 database by selecting any CPU/amount of RAM/motherboard/HDD's/Graphics card to see what the best machines use.


http://ppbm6.com/News.html

It is all about the value for money.If there are two systems identical in CPU, memory and video card, they have the same investment cost. If one system is faster than the other, because of better disk setup (not included here) or better tuning (not quantifiable in $) it will give a better BFTB score because per $ it delivers better performance. ....


The best area to be is the blue area. The further to the right, the better the performance in the test, the higher the Bang-for-the-Buck (BFTB) score, the better the value for the money. To help interpreting these results, the three scores in the blue area and others close to it, are:
  • 14.1 : Harm's Beast (i7-920 @ 3.7, 12 GB, GTX 480)
  • 13.5 : Cristobal OC/PC (i7-950 @ 4.2, 12 GB, GTX 460)
  • 11.3 : JES3 (i7-950 @ 4.3, 24 GB, GTX 480)
  • 6.9 : Studio North (i7-980X @ 4.3, 14 GB, GTX 480)
  • 6.2 : BillG (i7-980X @ 4.3, 24 GB, GTX 580)
A noteworthy but not unexpected conclusion is that nearly all scores below 5.0 are dual Xeon systems and in the range from 5.0 to 9.0 are the i7-980X systems. Seeing these results, one can clearly see that the BFTB score of 6.9 is much more attractive than the 2.8 score of the top performer, or the 1.8 score of the Juggernaut. It makes it obvious that dual Xeon systems are not the most economical choice. It also shows that a simple i7-920/930/950 is more economical than the i7-980X, and the new Sandy Bridge is a nice third in the 6.0 to 10.1 range.


Finally, here are their thoughts on trying to build the best NLE machine that they can. But they are chasing technology here, talking about waiting a few months for a CPU to be released, and doing a 4 SSD C: drive RAID, and using 28 HDD's in RAID. That is at least $3,000 just for the disk drives without the RAID controller!

http://ppbm6.com/Planning.html

From time to time we all face the question, should we build a new system now or in the next couple of months? What should we aim at, in terms of improvements? Do we need to save some more $$ and postpone our new system for a couple of months to profit from that decision for years to come? Where can we find info about option A or B to help us decide what is best for us? Is it really worth it in terms of 'Bang-for-the-buck' BFTB? Have we taken all aspects of a new system into consideration, did we not forget anything? Should we wait for those new accounced products? ....

CPU

...So, either i7-39xx or even a dual Xeon SB-EP. Hang on, that i5-2690 Xeon goes for over $ 2 K apiece and then the rest of the components are equally expensive, so let's forget about that.
Initial choice of CPU: i7-39xx with the intention to overclock to 4.6 - 4.8 GHz


However, the current 3930K and 3960X have two cores disabled, as well as part of the L3 cache. I really hope that Intel will announce a 3980X with all 8 cores enabled as well as all 20 MB L3 cache. The i5-2690 has all cores enabled and the full complement of L3, so why not for the i7-39 range? To answer my own hopes as being something not expected in the short term, is that Intel is very strict about the 130W TDP limit, so do not expect that 8-core to appear until the Ivy version of these chips are available. Still time to wait and see.

HDD

C: OS & programs: 4 x SSD in Raid10. One could always start with a single SSD.D: Pagefile, media cache, renders: 6 x HDD in Raid0 using 2 internal ports plus the 4 external ports.
E: Media, exports and all other stuff: 22 x HDD in Raid30, including 2 hot-spares. 2 x (10 R3 + 1 HS).
 
Premiere/CS runs better in Windows. This is not necessarily true of every program/suite available for both, but it's true of Premiere. If that's what you're planning to run, then Windows is the better bet.
 
Thank you very much to everyone for the detailed responses.

I have decided that I am going to stay with my initial plan of going PC (instead of switching to Mac). Howerver, I think based on posts by unadog & Mark Williams, I have scratched the AlienWare idea. I am very interested in purchasing the PC from avadirect.com, but could use some help to make sure I get exactly what I need.

Here is what I am thinking---

Budget - $3000.00 - $3500.00

Do Not Need: a monitor, keyboard, mouse or pre-installed hard drives for storage ( i have a network storage server and also have 3) extra 2tb 7000rpm sata hard drives sitting on the shelf that I can install).

My wants (I think):

Intel core I7 - 3930k
SSD Hard drive for OS
Windows 7 Professional
Geforce GTX580 video card

I found this base machine and would love help tweaking all of the options to get the perfect combo within my budget. http://www.avadirect.com/workstation-pc-configurator.asp?PRID=22749 I have NO IDEA which case, motherboard, powersupply, thermal options, ram, etc, that I would need.

Thank you,
Robert Pfeifer
Pifemaster Productions
www.pifemaster.com
 
That looks like a good start!

I'll take a look in detail. I like the power supply options. The video card is a good, solid choice.

I was worried about the triple graphic card option, as SLI and multiple cards are NOT usable by Adobe. But it doesn't look like that is required. It is not bad to have the extra slots.

The Ivy Bridge chips are getting more common on all machines. The Sandy Bridge are being fazed out, so should either be discounted or already gone. I'm surprised that machine still has Sandy Bridge.

How quickly do you need a machine? I trade time shopping and watching for deals for money savings. I hate not getting the best deal. Your choice! :)

This is like buying a car - you start basic, like the cool options, get up to $48,000 from $18,000, then throw your hands up and start again. You know you only want to spend $22,000, but just have to have that upgraded CD/MP3/DVD player, and might as well get the package that comes with the wheels ....

Ultimately your call.

Cheers!
Michael
 
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