LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
- Thread starter smithy
- Start date
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
The reason asked is, because the DVX is already a $3400 reflective light meter. It's even a spot meter, if you turn on the "marker" function.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone use a reflective meter on a pro video shoot, normally they just use the monitor and light by eye. An incident meter may be useful for location scouting.
I have a Sekonic L508-C, which is a combo hemispheric incident/flat-disc incident/reflective spot meter. I highly recommend it, for general light-meter purposes, but I rarely use it for anything video-related.
The reason asked is, because the DVX is already a $3400 reflective light meter. It's even a spot meter, if you turn on the "marker" function.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone use a reflective meter on a pro video shoot, normally they just use the monitor and light by eye. An incident meter may be useful for location scouting.
I have a Sekonic L508-C, which is a combo hemispheric incident/flat-disc incident/reflective spot meter. I highly recommend it, for general light-meter purposes, but I rarely use it for anything video-related.
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=lighting;num=1089186493;start=0#3 date=07/07/04 at 11:44:55]The reason asked is, because the DVX is already a $3400 reflective light meter. It's even a spot meter, if you turn on the "marker" function.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone use a reflective meter on a pro video shoot, normally they just use the monitor and light by eye. An incident meter may be useful for location scouting.
I have a Sekonic L508-C, which is a combo hemispheric incident/flat-disc incident/reflective spot meter. I highly recommend it, for general light-meter purposes, but I rarely use it for anything video-related.[/quote]
Barry is right. Plus Reflective meters are a lot harder to use (But used right are very good) Reflective meters are more about color and how light reflects off it. IE Neon yellow reflects more then dark green. With a reflective meter you can take very precise reading about what your shooting... but they are pretty useless on video, if your shooting 35mm or 16mm go buy one or by a reflective/incident mix meter. BUT LEARN HOW TO USE IT 1st or you may expose for a black dog and have everything else over exposed.
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=lighting;num=1089186493;start=0#3 date=07/07/04 at 11:44:55]The reason asked is, because the DVX is already a $3400 reflective light meter. It's even a spot meter, if you turn on the "marker" function.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone use a reflective meter on a pro video shoot, normally they just use the monitor and light by eye. An incident meter may be useful for location scouting.
I have a Sekonic L508-C, which is a combo hemispheric incident/flat-disc incident/reflective spot meter. I highly recommend it, for general light-meter purposes, but I rarely use it for anything video-related.[/quote]
Barry is right. Plus Reflective meters are a lot harder to use (But used right are very good) Reflective meters are more about color and how light reflects off it. IE Neon yellow reflects more then dark green. With a reflective meter you can take very precise reading about what your shooting... but they are pretty useless on video, if your shooting 35mm or 16mm go buy one or by a reflective/incident mix meter. BUT LEARN HOW TO USE IT 1st or you may expose for a black dog and have everything else over exposed.
skippyfetus
Carbonite Member
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
Incident sucks for determining any useful lighting information based on your subject. If you want to take the brightness ratio and the reflectaces of your subject into consideration get a spot meter.
I recommend getting a Sekonic, but remember you do NOT need the Cine version since the DVX's exposure works like a normal digicam set to ISO640 and 1/60 for shutter.
Incident sucks for determining any useful lighting information based on your subject. If you want to take the brightness ratio and the reflectaces of your subject into consideration get a spot meter.
I recommend getting a Sekonic, but remember you do NOT need the Cine version since the DVX's exposure works like a normal digicam set to ISO640 and 1/60 for shutter.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
Normal shutter is 1/50th, not 1/60th. It'd make less than 1/3 of a stop of difference, so it's basically irrelevant, but -- for accuracy's sake...
Your bias against incident is surprising. I'd say that approximately 90% of the time that I've used a meter on set, or seen someone use a meter on set, it's an incident meter. Incident is the only way to get accurate information from your subject -- spot metering is too dependent on where you place the spot, whether the subject's skin is shiny, etc. To each his own, but incident is the more common mode used in cinematography as far as I know.
And yes, you are correct, DVX users don't need to bother with the Cine version -- setting the accurate shutter speed is enough, there's no need to take into account fps or shutter angle or all the other toys the Cine version brings to it. I use mine for film and video, so I got the Cine, but for DVX use there's no need for the additional features (or expense) of the Cine model.
Normal shutter is 1/50th, not 1/60th. It'd make less than 1/3 of a stop of difference, so it's basically irrelevant, but -- for accuracy's sake...
Your bias against incident is surprising. I'd say that approximately 90% of the time that I've used a meter on set, or seen someone use a meter on set, it's an incident meter. Incident is the only way to get accurate information from your subject -- spot metering is too dependent on where you place the spot, whether the subject's skin is shiny, etc. To each his own, but incident is the more common mode used in cinematography as far as I know.
And yes, you are correct, DVX users don't need to bother with the Cine version -- setting the accurate shutter speed is enough, there's no need to take into account fps or shutter angle or all the other toys the Cine version brings to it. I use mine for film and video, so I got the Cine, but for DVX use there's no need for the additional features (or expense) of the Cine model.
Mike_Donis
Veteran
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
I'm completely with Barry on this (when am I not though
)
The DVX outputs the exact signal. If you like how it looks, great, and if you don't, change it. That's one of the best things about digital video, we see exactly what we're recording
If you really want to monitor just turn on zebras to make sure you're not blown out (though usually I don't even use them, because if your shot looks good in the monitor, who cares what technically makes it that way? It looks good!)
I'm completely with Barry on this (when am I not though
)The DVX outputs the exact signal. If you like how it looks, great, and if you don't, change it. That's one of the best things about digital video, we see exactly what we're recording
If you really want to monitor just turn on zebras to make sure you're not blown out (though usually I don't even use them, because if your shot looks good in the monitor, who cares what technically makes it that way? It looks good!)Slapdragon
Well-known member
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=lighting;num=1089186493;start=0#6 date=07/07/04 at 20:42:12]Normal shutter is 1/50th, not 1/60th. It'd make less than 1/3 of a stop of difference, so it's basically irrelevant, but -- for accuracy's sake...
Your bias against incident is surprising. I'd say that approximately 90% of the time that I've used a meter on set, or seen someone use a meter on set, it's an incident meter. Incident is the only way to get accurate information from your subject -- spot metering is too dependent on where you place the spot, whether the subject's skin is shiny, etc. To each his own, but incident is the more common mode used in cinematography as far as I know.
And yes, you are correct, DVX users don't need to bother with the Cine version -- setting the accurate shutter speed is enough, there's no need to take into account fps or shutter angle or all the other toys the Cine version brings to it. I use mine for film and video, so I got the Cine, but for DVX use there's no need for the additional features (or expense) of the Cine model.[/quote]
Spot metering is generally for students learning to use light meters (it is easy to learn), or for the initial light when you are merely sticking instruments in the right places. The incident tells you roughly your light levels.
Incident is preferred because it reads actual contrast ratios, not thearetical contrast ratios. If, for example, you are going for 2-1 off talents face at a given mark, you can read incident on both sides of the face to get your ration. With a spot, you know how much light is coming at the talent, but not what is bouncing back, and angle of face, reflection of clothes, and so forth, can change the ratio.
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=lighting;num=1089186493;start=0#6 date=07/07/04 at 20:42:12]Normal shutter is 1/50th, not 1/60th. It'd make less than 1/3 of a stop of difference, so it's basically irrelevant, but -- for accuracy's sake...
Your bias against incident is surprising. I'd say that approximately 90% of the time that I've used a meter on set, or seen someone use a meter on set, it's an incident meter. Incident is the only way to get accurate information from your subject -- spot metering is too dependent on where you place the spot, whether the subject's skin is shiny, etc. To each his own, but incident is the more common mode used in cinematography as far as I know.
And yes, you are correct, DVX users don't need to bother with the Cine version -- setting the accurate shutter speed is enough, there's no need to take into account fps or shutter angle or all the other toys the Cine version brings to it. I use mine for film and video, so I got the Cine, but for DVX use there's no need for the additional features (or expense) of the Cine model.[/quote]
Spot metering is generally for students learning to use light meters (it is easy to learn), or for the initial light when you are merely sticking instruments in the right places. The incident tells you roughly your light levels.
Incident is preferred because it reads actual contrast ratios, not thearetical contrast ratios. If, for example, you are going for 2-1 off talents face at a given mark, you can read incident on both sides of the face to get your ration. With a spot, you know how much light is coming at the talent, but not what is bouncing back, and angle of face, reflection of clothes, and so forth, can change the ratio.
skippyfetus
Carbonite Member
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=lighting;num=1089186493;start=0#6 date=07/07/04 at 20:42:12]Normal shutter is 1/50th, not 1/60th. It'd make less than 1/3 of a stop of difference, so it's basically irrelevant, but -- for accuracy's sake...[/quote]
Actually in 60i mode the default shutter is 1/60 (which makes sense because there is 60 fields)... in progressive modes it is 1/50.
Are you sure that you're not getting incident and reflected light metering mixed up? Reflected light metering (whether spot or wide) is the only way to get complete control of your tones on film. Using the zone system you don't even need to look at a monitor to know what you're going to get, once you get the hang of it. I specialize in normal photography, so right now I'd make a better DP than a cinematographer.
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=lighting;num=1089186493;start=0#6 date=07/07/04 at 20:42:12]Normal shutter is 1/50th, not 1/60th. It'd make less than 1/3 of a stop of difference, so it's basically irrelevant, but -- for accuracy's sake...[/quote]
Actually in 60i mode the default shutter is 1/60 (which makes sense because there is 60 fields)... in progressive modes it is 1/50.
Are you sure that you're not getting incident and reflected light metering mixed up? Reflected light metering (whether spot or wide) is the only way to get complete control of your tones on film. Using the zone system you don't even need to look at a monitor to know what you're going to get, once you get the hang of it. I specialize in normal photography, so right now I'd make a better DP than a cinematographer.
Yup, I feel sorry for those people who don't realize they don't need to pay over a hundred dollars more when they're just using a DVX.
skippyfetus
Carbonite Member
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
[quote author=Slapdragon link=board=lighting;num=1089186493;start=0#8 date=07/07/04 at 20:52:15]
Spot metering is generally for students learning to use light meters (it is easy to learn), or for the initial light when you are merely sticking instruments in the right places. The incident tells you roughly your light levels.
Incident is preferred because it reads actual contrast ratios, not thearetical contrast ratios. If, for example, you are going for 2-1 off talents face at a given mark, you can read incident on both sides of the face to get your ration. With a spot, you know how much light is coming at the talent, but not what is bouncing back, and angle of face, reflection of clothes, and so forth, can change the ratio.[/quote]
Incident is good for measuring lighting ratios, but spot is by far the more advanced form of exposure determination. I've never heard anyone regard spot metering as something for beginners... quite the opposite. I learned what I know about exposure from reading Ansel Adams and I don't think anyone's going to call him an amateur.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that you're getting incident and spot mixed up too. Spot metering measures light reflected off the subject at a very narrow angle. It can tell you the exact amount of footcandles, lux, or whatever of a given surface.
[quote author=Slapdragon link=board=lighting;num=1089186493;start=0#8 date=07/07/04 at 20:52:15]
Spot metering is generally for students learning to use light meters (it is easy to learn), or for the initial light when you are merely sticking instruments in the right places. The incident tells you roughly your light levels.
Incident is preferred because it reads actual contrast ratios, not thearetical contrast ratios. If, for example, you are going for 2-1 off talents face at a given mark, you can read incident on both sides of the face to get your ration. With a spot, you know how much light is coming at the talent, but not what is bouncing back, and angle of face, reflection of clothes, and so forth, can change the ratio.[/quote]
Incident is good for measuring lighting ratios, but spot is by far the more advanced form of exposure determination. I've never heard anyone regard spot metering as something for beginners... quite the opposite. I learned what I know about exposure from reading Ansel Adams and I don't think anyone's going to call him an amateur.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that you're getting incident and spot mixed up too. Spot metering measures light reflected off the subject at a very narrow angle. It can tell you the exact amount of footcandles, lux, or whatever of a given surface.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
In incident metering, you point the meter at the light to gauge the brightness of light that's hitting your subject.
In reflected/spot metering, you point the meter at the subject.
Cinematographers will usually set their key to achieve a certain f-stop (as determined by incident reading of light falling where the subject will be), then set the fill and back lights by eye (video) or by incident meter (film). There's not a whole lot of reflected/spot metering going on on the average film set. Reflected metering is even more difficult when you consider that with a name-brand actor, you usually won't even have access to that actor until the lighting setup is basically complete -- normally you're working off of a stand-in, who won't necessarily have the same complexion, etc. So cinematography lighting is primarily incident.
In incident metering, you point the meter at the light to gauge the brightness of light that's hitting your subject.
In reflected/spot metering, you point the meter at the subject.
Cinematographers will usually set their key to achieve a certain f-stop (as determined by incident reading of light falling where the subject will be), then set the fill and back lights by eye (video) or by incident meter (film). There's not a whole lot of reflected/spot metering going on on the average film set. Reflected metering is even more difficult when you consider that with a name-brand actor, you usually won't even have access to that actor until the lighting setup is basically complete -- normally you're working off of a stand-in, who won't necessarily have the same complexion, etc. So cinematography lighting is primarily incident.
Mike_Donis
Veteran
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
That's what I love about shooting digital. All this metering is so much more of a hassle than just tweaking till it looks good on the monitor!
That's what I love about shooting digital. All this metering is so much more of a hassle than just tweaking till it looks good on the monitor!
skippyfetus
Carbonite Member
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
Ok, you know what you're talking about, so why did you say this
that's exactly what I would say about reflected
Ok, that's a fair point, but I would personally use different exposures for different skin tones. My technique is based on still photography and I don't like automated or one-size-fits-all lighting setups. I'm sure you're right about cinematographers using incident more than spot, but not me.
smithy
Well-known member
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=lighting;num=1089186493;start=0#11 date=07/08/04 at 22:20:52]There's not a whole lot of reflected/spot metering going on on the average film set. Reflected metering is even more difficult when you consider that with a name-brand actor, you usually won't even have access to that actor until the lighting setup is basically complete -- normally you're working off of a stand-in, who won't necessarily have the same complexion, etc. So cinematography lighting is primarily incident.[/quote]
This is true to a point. Casting companies try their best to get the right standin to match their actors..but here in Hollywood it's all politics and it comes down to who needs a SAG card. Hell I've seen girls with blonde hair standing on appleboxs for a dark haired lead on major motion pictures. I'm glad as a SAG actor this method of joining will soon be eliminated. BTW. From my days on set I've seen many DP's just use the spot meter and tell their grips to throw a baby here or shut a barndoor on a hot mole. But I guess since their in local 80 for so many years they can judge pretty much by looking with the naked eye and know what to do. But for someone like myself who is a noob in lighting I'm interested what is the correct way to light. I heard there is Jay's book on lighting but want to know if it is thorough enough for one to understanding using the light techniques in his book. Has anyone read his book? But after looking at all the responses it looks like the incident is the way to go even though spot metering seems a lot faster especially if you have some grips in production to do the grunt work. Thanks for all the responses.
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=lighting;num=1089186493;start=0#11 date=07/08/04 at 22:20:52]There's not a whole lot of reflected/spot metering going on on the average film set. Reflected metering is even more difficult when you consider that with a name-brand actor, you usually won't even have access to that actor until the lighting setup is basically complete -- normally you're working off of a stand-in, who won't necessarily have the same complexion, etc. So cinematography lighting is primarily incident.[/quote]
This is true to a point. Casting companies try their best to get the right standin to match their actors..but here in Hollywood it's all politics and it comes down to who needs a SAG card. Hell I've seen girls with blonde hair standing on appleboxs for a dark haired lead on major motion pictures. I'm glad as a SAG actor this method of joining will soon be eliminated. BTW. From my days on set I've seen many DP's just use the spot meter and tell their grips to throw a baby here or shut a barndoor on a hot mole. But I guess since their in local 80 for so many years they can judge pretty much by looking with the naked eye and know what to do. But for someone like myself who is a noob in lighting I'm interested what is the correct way to light. I heard there is Jay's book on lighting but want to know if it is thorough enough for one to understanding using the light techniques in his book. Has anyone read his book? But after looking at all the responses it looks like the incident is the way to go even though spot metering seems a lot faster especially if you have some grips in production to do the grunt work. Thanks for all the responses.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
[quote author=Tony_H link=board=lighting;num=1089186493;start=0#13 date=07/08/04 at 23:20:53]so why did you say this...
that's exactly what I would say about reflected[/quote]
I said what I did because when dealing with video, knowing what light is hitting the subject is knowing what the proper aperture is to render that subject realistically. Not always artistically, of course -- you may choose to open up or stop down based on the light being reflected, but given any circumstance, knowing what light is hitting it will let you know what the aperture should be to render that subject as it looks.
Here's an example: if you point a spotmeter at a black object, it'll tell you the reading it would want to use for that black object to make the black look gray (assuming calibration for 18% reflectance gray). Point the spotmeter at a white object, and it'll report a very different f-stop, also designed to make that white object match 18% gray. Neither object is 18% gray. If you want the black one to look black and the white one to look white, you use an incident reading to determine what light is falling on the objects, and set your exposure accordingly, and the black one will look black and the white one will look white (within the exposure latitude of your recording medium).
[quote author=Tony_H link=board=lighting;num=1089186493;start=0#13 date=07/08/04 at 23:20:53]so why did you say this...
that's exactly what I would say about reflected[/quote]
I said what I did because when dealing with video, knowing what light is hitting the subject is knowing what the proper aperture is to render that subject realistically. Not always artistically, of course -- you may choose to open up or stop down based on the light being reflected, but given any circumstance, knowing what light is hitting it will let you know what the aperture should be to render that subject as it looks.
Here's an example: if you point a spotmeter at a black object, it'll tell you the reading it would want to use for that black object to make the black look gray (assuming calibration for 18% reflectance gray). Point the spotmeter at a white object, and it'll report a very different f-stop, also designed to make that white object match 18% gray. Neither object is 18% gray. If you want the black one to look black and the white one to look white, you use an incident reading to determine what light is falling on the objects, and set your exposure accordingly, and the black one will look black and the white one will look white (within the exposure latitude of your recording medium).
Oh, most definitely... but what if they're in the same shot? When I have subjects of different complexions, I'll usually try to compensate by lighting the darker-skinned subject brighter, if possible. But you're absolutely right, one-reading-fits-all doesn't necessarily provide flattering portraiture of darker-skinned subjects.
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
[quote author=Mike_Donis link=board=lighting;num=1089186493;start=0#12 date=07/08/04 at 23:03:40]That's what I love about shooting digital. All this metering is so much more of a hassle than just tweaking till it looks good on the monitor![/quote]
One question, please? When you guys are refer to the "monitor", you mean an auxillary video monitor and not the built in LCD monitor, correct? Or can you actually use the LCD monitor to light shots correctly? I'm confused. ???
[quote author=Mike_Donis link=board=lighting;num=1089186493;start=0#12 date=07/08/04 at 23:03:40]That's what I love about shooting digital. All this metering is so much more of a hassle than just tweaking till it looks good on the monitor![/quote]
One question, please? When you guys are refer to the "monitor", you mean an auxillary video monitor and not the built in LCD monitor, correct? Or can you actually use the LCD monitor to light shots correctly? I'm confused. ???
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
LCD is good. Better then a crappy monitor unless you have a really good one like a HD one, with a waveform underneath it. But when I'm shooting with a DVX I use the LCD for lighting, and monitor for composition. Don't want to get in the cameraman's face too much... unless you are the cam op. When I'm lighting a scene, I ALWAYS LIGHT FROM THE CAMERA. I ask my op to take a frame and once he locks it I stay there and direct my Gaffer and key on what I want. If its 35mm or 16mm I will go up with my light meter and take my readings. But on video you don't really need to cus what you see is what you get. I use my light meter on video if I need to keep my lighting consistent during camera moves, but you don't need to do it. Just something I was trained to do.
LCD is good. Better then a crappy monitor unless you have a really good one like a HD one, with a waveform underneath it. But when I'm shooting with a DVX I use the LCD for lighting, and monitor for composition. Don't want to get in the cameraman's face too much... unless you are the cam op. When I'm lighting a scene, I ALWAYS LIGHT FROM THE CAMERA. I ask my op to take a frame and once he locks it I stay there and direct my Gaffer and key on what I want. If its 35mm or 16mm I will go up with my light meter and take my readings. But on video you don't really need to cus what you see is what you get. I use my light meter on video if I need to keep my lighting consistent during camera moves, but you don't need to do it. Just something I was trained to do.
skippyfetus
Carbonite Member
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
Also, a spot meter can help you determine the brightness ratio of your scene and compare that with the contrast ratio of your medium to see if it will "fit".
That's cool, and that's probably the easiest way to get a decent exposure of everything on film. However, if you know the zone system, you can make a spot reading from a white object and interpret the "normal" exposure that your meter gives you to make it look white on camera. I haven't done any tests to find out the contrast ratio of the DVX, but I'm guessing somewhere around 5 stops? If it is in fact five stops, you'd just open up two stops from the "normal" reading of a white object.
Also, a spot meter can help you determine the brightness ratio of your scene and compare that with the contrast ratio of your medium to see if it will "fit".
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: LOOKING FOR A DECENT LIGHT METER
Latitude on the DVX is closer to 7 or 7.5 stops, if I remember correctly from Michael P's testing during the American Cinematographer article. I think it's 1.5 or 2 stops over, and five and a half stops under. And I think Adam Wilt said that the new CineGamma on the 100A can actually extend latitude maybe a half-stop.
Latitude on the DVX is closer to 7 or 7.5 stops, if I remember correctly from Michael P's testing during the American Cinematographer article. I think it's 1.5 or 2 stops over, and five and a half stops under. And I think Adam Wilt said that the new CineGamma on the 100A can actually extend latitude maybe a half-stop.