Live Electronic music performances

O

overgroun

New member
I am a freelance videographer and student in Lincoln, NE. I host a TV program on local public access as well. I most often record live electronic performances in lincoln. I have made videos from live performances of: Glitch Mob, Pretty Lights, EOTO, Big Gigantic, Ana Sia, Eliot Lipp, EPROM, Bil Bless, Vibesquad, Shpongle, The Hood Internet, Armin Van Buuren, and Alex B.

I've also made unofficial music videos for Passion Pit, James Warren, and DJ Krush among others.

check out my most popular vids and tell me what you think :)

http://vimeo.com/overgroun/videos/sort:plays

with respect,
Craig
 
I hope you understand that if you don't have the copyright holder's permission to use the music, then your videos violate U.S. copyright law. You may be subject to a $250,000 fine and 5 years in a federal prison for each offense.
 
every artist that i have used a song to I have personally sent it to the artist via online or US mail and have got responce from. I don't make money of any of the videos I used as music videos. In fact, Public access requires that you cant make money off the program you host.
 
Copyright infringement isn't based on whether you make money off it or not. The mere act of putting it on YouTube, Vimeo, etc. constitutes a federal crime, if you don't have the PROPER permission.

Just having the artist say it's okay usually isn't enough. The copyright to the song might be owned by a record company or some other entity. Especially if the song is a cover.

Get a release in writing from the current copyright owner. Only then are you safe.
 
I notice a number of people in the audience are easily recognizable. That could be trouble too, if you don't have signed releases from them.

Just trying to protect your interests here.
 
I see. Thank you for letting me know. I have been following this: http://www.mahalo.com/answers/is-it-violating-copyright-to-take-a-short-video-of-a-concert

I meet with many of the artists before the events. Usually the promoter takes me under his/her wing for the production of the event. I collect contracts from the promoter and venue so I think they would get in trouble before I, especially if they're aware of what I'm doing. Also, none of the artists are on big shot Hollywood record labels that have pressed charges for anything like this. I live and operate in Lincoln, Nebraska. No doubt that people have gone down for less in the past, but I think they have better ways to make money.
 
Just curious.....who is the 'they' that have better ways to make money? Because the people you have to worry about are the U.S. government. The $250,000 fine comes from them, and goes into their coffers (as far as I know.) It's not about the copyright holder suing you -- which could happen too, of course. The bigger concern is the feds coming down on you. And they need the money. :)
 
well, this is something I love to do. I can't see myself doing anything else. I love being a videographer, but I'm not so much into writing scripts or any of the "hollywood" stuff. I love capturing a live moment as it happens. Especially if it involves the music culture that I am apart of. I now have a name for myself and people expect me to be at these events. I'm learning more and getting better every day. I don't see myself slowing down any time soon. I just finished this video for HEYOKA: http://vimeo.com/19051052 and he personally thanked me for what I'm doing!
 
David W. Richardson said:
Maybe. But do you really want to risk it???
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Do the feds?

I mean, you're technically right, but this is a kid taking concert videos and posting them on his Vimeo page. If they were to fine this kid $250,000 or give him jail time, or really do anything, it would be a PR nightmare. If they really fined him that much, it would be a gigantic PR nightmare. Yeah, they could, but I can't imagine they would, because:

(1) In the scheme of the federal budget, 250,000 is basically nothing....not worth a potential PR storm
(2) This kid is highly unlikely to be able to actually pay it, which means a bigger pain in the ass for them
(3) Jail time would almost certainly cost the gov more than they could make off of any fine
(4) To take the time it would take to determine he didn't have the rights and deal with an actual criminal case would be a huge waste of their time, aaaaand....

I'm not a legal expert, but as I understand it, copyright violation isn't a felony unless it involves some money changing hands, so while the record companies could sue the bejeezus out of this kid (although they wouldn't since he's basically shooting free advertising for them and it would be a PR nightmare for them too, just ask Metallica, and they were taking on someone much more directly stealing from them....) I don't think the feds would have a case...

Like I said, not sure about that last part. But I think regardless it'd have to be a pretty crazy fed to try to turn this into a federal case, and my guess is their boss would probably send them to sit in the corner when they heard about it.

Or, to put it another way, it may be possible, but has someone doing something like this ever been charged with a felony before?
 
Custer, you bring up good points, but when it comes down to it, has copyright been infringed? If it has, then as a business person, that person places themselves in jeopardy. Will that jeopardy turn into real trouble? Maybe. Jimmy Buffet goes after any person caught covering his songs without his permission. And he rarely gives permission. He will sue the pants off of copyright violators, just to make a point. Doesn't matter whether you have money or not. He does and can pay attorneys to go after you.

And then the government will have it's turn with you, especially if the CR holder is angry. Copyright Infringement hurts all persons involved. The artist whose work is being infringed upon, the violator (lawsuits, damaged reputation, showing the world a lack of integrity as a business person/artist).

It does bother me that there are so many people that justify theft (that's what copyright infringement is) as a non-issue. Personally, if you steal something, whether its an mp3, software, copyright, a piece of candy, car, camera equipment.......it's all the same. Theft. And sadly, there are many individuals out there that don't care if you work your fingers to the bone creating something of worth, they just take it for their own profit and give nothing back. And even if it's a kid doing it, it is still not okay.

Overgroun, you have to ask yourself, "if I have not gotten copyright licenses, and releases from the the people on my tapes, is it worth the headaches down the road?" If you ever really start making money, or get some real exposure, you better believe they will come out of the woodwork to get a piece of your action. And because you have not protected yourself now, they will be entitled to it.

Copyright Infringement is becoming an important issue and one I will blow the whistle on, because I have suffered from people stealing my work and making money from it. We are a group of artists and content creators. We should ALL be against Copyright Infringement, and not tolerate it when it shows itself, here or anywhere. As content creators, we need to protect other content creators from being ripped off.

You would want us to be in your corner if you had gotten ripped off, right?
 
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Doc Bernard said:
Custer, you bring up good points, but when it comes down to it, has copyright been infringed? If it has, then as a business person, that person places themselves in jeopardy. Will that jeopardy turn into real trouble? Maybe. Jimmy Buffet goes after any person caught covering his songs without his permission. And he rarely gives permission. He will sue the pants off of copyright violators, just to make a point. Doesn't matter whether you have money or not. He does and can pay attorneys to go after you.

And then the government will have it's turn with you, especially if the CR holder is angry. Copyright Infringement hurts all persons involved. The artist whose work is being infringed upon, the violator (lawsuits, damaged reputation, showing the world a lack of integrity as a business person/artist).

It does bother me that there are so many people that justify theft (that's what copyright infringement is) as a non-issue. Personally, if you steal something, whether its an mp3, software, copyright, a piece of candy, car, camera equipment.......it's all the same. Theft. And sadly, there are many individuals out there that don't care if you work your fingers to the bone creating something of worth, they just take it for their own profit and give nothing back. And even if it's a kid doing it, it is still not okay.

Overgroun, you have to ask yourself, "if I have not gotten copyright licenses, and releases from the the people on my tapes, is it worth the headaches down the road?" If you ever really start making money, or get some real exposure, you better believe they will come out of the woodwork to get a piece of your action. And because you have not protected yourself now, they will be entitled to it.

Copyright Infringement is becoming an important issue and one I will blow the whistle on, because I have suffered from people stealing my work and making money from it. We are a group of artists and content creators. We should ALL be against Copyright Infringement, and not tolerate it when it shows itself, here or anywhere. As content creators, we need to protect other content creators from being ripped off.

You would want us to be in your corner if you had gotten ripped off, right?
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Sure, but there's no stealing going on here, not in the way you're describing it.

First of all, this kid isn't selling anything. He's not making any money off of anyone's hard work, and in fact, he's also putting in some work of his own to make these videos. He's also doing something that most artists (and record labels) appreciate and many even encourage.

I don't dispute that yes, technically, this is probably copyright infringement. But it's not the same as stealing someone else's work for money, and realistically, by asking this kid to get releases from the crowd and from the band, what you're really asking him to do is stop shooting, because no one is going to walk around at a concert with release forms to put a video clip on a free video website, and even if they did, lots of people wouldn't sign it on the basis that that is ridiculous and that the kid was probably trying to trick them into signing something else. And who wants to look over a release form in detail in the middle of a concert?

Now, allow me to ask a personal (and rhetorical) question to the legal hounds on this site: in the entirety of your video career, you never shot anything without release forms? Never maybe used a song you didn't have the rights to? Not even when you were fooling around with your dad's video camera at home when you were young? You always had the paperwork down 100%?

If you really did, then good for you, but I doubt most people could honestly say that.

The truth is that, uptight pricks like Jimmy Buffet aside, for artistic purposes companies tend to ignore small fry until they're big enough that they aren't violating copyrights because they've got the lawyers to work out the rights to whatever they need. By artistic, I mean the appropriation of someone's copyrighted work into a new artistic work that includes, but is different from, the appropriated work. Obviously downloading MP3s or whatever is a different story, but in terms of making these videos, realistically, the worst thats going to happen to this kid is a cease-and-desist letter. But more likely what he's doing is making the artists and their labels happy; as a musical artist with 10+ years of experience I know that my label certainly doesn't care about this sort of thing, and in fact, they actively encourage it.

Yes, of course, the label has a right to decide that for themselves and blah blah. But if they don't want him doing it, they can send a cease-and-desist. COULD they sue him for a bunch of money? Yeah probably. But like I said, it won't happen, and this is NOT the place to take some "principled stand" against piracy, because this isn't piracy.

If you've had copyrighted work stolen from you, I feel for you. I am right now looking at a torrent that allows people to download my most recent album for free. And yeah, that sucks. But that's not what's happening here.

This kid isn't hurting anyone's profits, and in fact, he's doing these artists a service and being the best kind of fan there is -- an active, participatory one. Regardless of the letter of the law, when I look at this case, I see that we need to balance (1) the rights of the copyright owners (2) the kid's protection from serious legal trouble and (3) the development of the kid as a creative professional.

With regards to (1) since they're not actually losing anything financially, and are gaining some publicity, it's my judgement that the copyright holders rights are not threatened here. A judge might disagree, but since the rights holders themselves almost certainly won't, I highly doubt such a case would ever come before a judge.

(2) by far the most likely repercussion to his making these videos is nothing. If not that, I suspect he would get an online notice, or a formal cease-and-desist letter. A direct suit might be Jimmy Buffet's MO, but I find it extremely unlikely coming from electronica artists and music labels, since their music tends to borrow and sample heavily from other genres and previously recorded music. In a genre that is grounded in the appropriation of other people's work for creative purposes, I find a direct suit to be extremely unlikely.

(3) Realistically, there are two likely outcomes to this thread. The first is that the kid ignores all of you and keeps shooting these anyway. The second is that you freak him out and he stops shooting entirely, which I would consider to be detrimental to his creative development.



I agree as content creators, we should all be against copyright infringement, but we don't all need to be lawyers, enforcing the letter of the law with no eye for subtlety, context, or shades of gray. Moreover, according to the OP, the content creators in this specific case are in favor of what he's doing. In some cases, record companies probably own the actual rights to their music, but if the creators are for it, and the kid is for it, and we're against it, whose side are we really on? As content creators we should not encourage theft, of course, but we should encourage the development and growth of new talent and, to the greatest extent possible, give people free range to learn and make mistakes rather than terrifying them with the threat of a phantom $250,000 lawsuit.

Sure, that lawsuit could happen, but frankly the kid is more likely to get into a car accident on the way to one of these gigs, and I don't see anyone warning him about that.

In conclusion: chill out, guys.
 
(3) Realistically, there are two likely outcomes to this thread. The first is that the kid ignores all of you and keeps shooting these anyway. The second is that you freak him out and he stops shooting entirely, which I would consider to be detrimental to his creative development.
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Or 3, he shoots responsibly. It doesn't take much to do that. And if he wants to pursue it as a business, better to learn the ropes now, than pay later for mistakes. If anything we are trying to help him do it right.

You are applying shades of grey to a black and white issue. Is it theft? Yes or no? If yes........... There's no real middle ground here, "it's only a little stealing". No..... if it is theft, then it is theft.

Like I said, getting releases, and permissions are not that hard. Which makes it worse. There is no intent to "scare him" off videography. But more so to help educate him by those that have experience in the biz.

Now, allow me to ask a personal (and rhetorical) question to the legal hounds on this site: in the entirety of your video career, you never shot anything without release forms? Never maybe used a song you didn't have the rights to?
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Nope.
 
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Doc Bernard said:
Or 3, he shoots responsibly. It doesn't take much to do that. And if he wants to pursue it as a business, better to learn the ropes now, than pay later for mistakes. If anything we are trying to help him do it right.

You are applying shades of grey to a black and white issue. Is it theft? Yes or no? If yes........... There's no real middle ground here, "it's only a little stealing". No..... if it is theft, then it is theft.

Like I said, getting releases, and permissions are not that hard. Which makes it worse. There is no intent to "scare him" off videography. But more so to help educate him by those that have experience in the biz.

Nope.
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Is it theft? I would say no. The content producers and copyright owners have not lost anything, and in fact arguably have actually gained something. Nor has the "thief" gained anything that was theirs, since simply having shot and posted the video doesn't give him any actual rights to use it.

Or, to put it another way...if you make a basketball, and I take it from you, that's stealing. But if I paint a picture of your basketball, is that stealing? Sure, I didn't formally get the rights to the image of the basketball from you before I painted the picture. But it's fundamentally not the same thing as walking into your garage and stealing your basketball, because (1) I haven't profited from your work (2) you still have the basketball and (3) my paining of the basketball hasn't influenced you in any way other than possibly making your basketball more well known on Vimeo.

He has been getting permissions from the artists, and the places he's filming. You're right, that's not that hard. But what all of you are saying is that he needs to contact these artists record companies to get legal rights to film and publicly post the video, then get everyone in the audience who might have come up in a shot to sign a release form.

That would be safer, and if he was a professional, that's what he would do. But he's a kid who is filming some concerts! It's not really practical, and it's really not necessary.


Anyway, I don't think there's any point in continuing this discussion, but I will say that I don't think this is a black and white issue at all. In cases where people are stealing content they're supposed to pay for -- downloading movies, songs, whatever -- yeah, that's pretty black and white. But I think there's some gray in reality here you're not seeing, even if the law is (by necessity) black and white.
 
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