Lighting for old movie

scharky

scharky

Veteran
My local film group and I are shooting a "theatre etiquitte" film to be blown up to 35mm and shown in independent theatres before each film. We are going for an old 50's B&W look, and was wondering if any of you fine gurus had some tips for us about lighting techniques used in those days. I have already checked out some books from the University library, but if there are any other tips that you would care to share I would be indeed, very greatful.
Right now we have access to a pretty extensive light kit, kind of a collaboration of lights from all of the people in my film group. We will be shooting this inside a theatre and are going to be using the actual movie screen/projector as part of our light.
thanks in advance.
 
Re: Lighting for old movie

I beleive back in the day the film had a really low ASA so they had to blast light on the sets. They had to wait until they were ready to shoot before they turned on the lights cause it got so hot. That's where the phrase "Lights, camera, action" came from.....

I think anyway... ???
 
Re: Lighting for old movie

I've never been satisfied by the attempts at black and white done on video. Perhaps my snobbery comes from shooting extensive black and white still over my lifetime, but nothing really beats 35mm film for black and white.

Even 16mm black and white film kinda stinks.

I would think that the video artifacts would be even more distracting when blown up if there is also no color. I could be totally wrong though, as I'm just speculating.
 
Re: Lighting for old movie

You could be right J, and I totally agreee with you that nothing looks as good as 35mm B&W, but that really isn't an option for us.  I have found, however, with some tests, that desaturating the DVX as much as possible gives some very clean results, so hopefully, that with the animorphic adapter and good lighting will make good for a clean blow up.  I am thinking of going with DVfilm for the blow up itself.
I have been working with a professional photographer for about 1-1/2 years, I do all the digital retouches/color corrections.  I have found some nifty tricks in matching his digital shots (D100) to when he shoots film.  There is a big difference in the raw file, but after extensive CC and Curves/levels adjustments the average viewer has a hard time telling the difference.  that's the point right?
but you do have a good point J.  For all of my still photography I still shoot all film.  I just havn't found a digital camera yet that I really really like, and that can match my results with film.  Some day that time will come, but for now that's just the way it's gotta be.
 
Re: Lighting for old movie

I actually feel, personally, that the colors that come out of my DVX and overall look and feel (not resolution) have a much more filmic look than any digital still camera that I have seen. It is easier to fool someone with DVX footage, than a still digital photo I have found.
 
Re: Lighting for old movie

Yeah, big 'ol nasty arc lights all over the place in the old days. Generally high-key lighting with unmotivated sources (how old are you talking?) come to mind. The only thing a HS shutter will accomplish is decrease motion blur and give you that Gladiator look. Build contrast in, either in camera or in post. I think the apparent resolution will be greater after dropping chroma.
 
Re: Lighting for old movie

[quote author=scharky link=board=lighting;num=1091121329;start=0#6 date=07/29/04 at 13:11:31]I actually feel, personally, that the colors that come out of my DVX and overall look and feel (not resolution) have a much more filmic look than any digital still camera that I have seen.  It is easier to fool someone with DVX footage, than a still digital photo I have found.[/quote]

Oh, I respectfully disagree. There's some guys out there shooting digital still that are getting some amazing shots. Look at all the stuff comming back from Iraq, there's some really amazing work going on, but I think the difference really comes between the point and shoot and the DSLRs.

I'm eyeing a d70 right now, and considering that my main camera is a voigstlander perkeoII medium-format foldable rangefinder...that's an evolutionary leap of 64 years.

I do still love film for many reasons. However, I think that if they'd just get our video cameras to reach the same resolution and frame size as 35mm film...I'd never look back. Film is great because it has the ability to store a huge amount of information...but how many times have you seen crap caught in the film path ending up on screen?

Yeah, I can do without the dust and hairs.
 
Re: Lighting for old movie

[quote author=J_Barnes link=board=lighting;num=1091121329;start=0#8 date=07/29/04 at 13:29:53]
Yeah, I can do without the dust and hairs.[/quote]

Check the gate ;D

Boy I hate those words for some reason...
 
Re: Lighting for old movie

[quote author=scharky link=board=lighting;num=1091121329;start=0#3 date=07/29/04 at 11:46:51]So maybe an ND filter and higher shutter speed are in order?[/quote]
Never raise the shutter speed unless you want the motion choppiness that comes with it. You shouldn't use the shutter speed to control exposure.

For that high-contrast look you want bright strong hardlights blasting on your subject. The problem is that the DVX is a lot more sensitive than the film stocks they had back then. So not only do you need to stop down a lot, you have to control light reflection and spill. You should probably have a lot of duvetyne around, or black foam core or something, to soak up the light spill so that you get strong contrast ratios without the reflected spill light softening things up.
 
Re: Lighting for old movie

Ok, so get a couple of 600W to 1000W lights, with no softbox or umbrella, and just blast the hell out of them. I think I can do that. The thing is, this is being shot inside a movie theatre so maybe having the projector on is not such a good idea as it would cause a lot of unfocused light spill. We could always just wave things infront of the lights to make it look like images are moving on screen, without showing the screen. BTW, that shutter speed thing, did I really say that. What was I thinking, I know better than that. I think I was thinking more along the lines of 1/60th of a second. Too bad you can't decreas the ASA like you can in digital still cameras. I'm actually looking at getting a couple of those 600w lights from rostronics. Or do you think I should go with the 1000w lights. We also have access to 2 250watt smith victor lights as well as a pleathora of Work lights. It's definalty a Guerilla setup, but what are you gonna do. I'll be sure to post some grabs when we get this thing going. I do a lot of work in post so your input (everyone) will be greatly appreciated.
 
Re: Lighting for old movie


"You shouldn't use the shutter speed to control exposure."

Doesn't shutter control exposure time? Got myself an old soviet slr 1977 Zenit TTL and besides being able to stick a different sensitivity roll and mess with the aperture, shutter is the last alternative for exposure. Pretty much everything is relative in photography (motion or still) you can compensate everything for everything. Though i do agree that in motion pictures there are side effects (which could be used to an advantage of course heh).
 
Re: Lighting for old movie

Shutter does control exposure time, but the more you deviate from 1/50, the more severe the motion artifacts you'll get. Generally it's not worth it, and not necessary: with 8 f-stops and 8 stops of ND in the camera, plus the option of adding additional glass ND's, there's not usually a NEED to use the shutter speed to control exposure, there are usually other ways to get you where you're trying to go without introducing the motion artifacts caused by different shutter speeds.
 
Re: Lighting for old movie

Howcome motion picture cameras run at 1/48, but the DVX runs standard at 1/50? I know that there's such little a difference that it doesn't really matter, but why the differentiation? Is there a mathematical reason or something?
 
Re: Lighting for old movie

Because the idea of motion picture cameras running at 1/48 is a myth, that's why.

SOME cameras run at 1/48. Some run at 1/50. Some run at 1/60. Some run at 1/43. Most modern cameras have variable shutter angles that let them run anywhere from 1/90 down to 1/40th.

Take a look at this table of cameras:
http://www.panavision.co.nz/main/kbase/reference/Tblecamglance.asp


1/48 is the shutter speed you'd get if you used a 180-degree shutter. Not all cameras have a 180-degree shutter. Different shutter angles cause different shutter speeds. The CP16/R, for example, comes in three varieties: 144-degree shutter, 156-degree shutter, and 170-degree shutter. Three different exposure times, none of which are 1/48. The K-3 has a 150-degree shutter. The Panaflex LW, Arri SRII HS and Arri SRIIE have 172.8-degree shutters (which perfectly match the DVX's 1/50 exposure time).

Look at that list, you won't see a single camera with a fixed 180-degree shutter. You'll see shutter angles anywhere from 11 degrees to 200 degrees, although most have the OPTION of going with 180 degrees.
 
Re: Lighting for old movie

I did shoot a scene in a theater once on 16mm, it didn't look particularly period, but the lighting we used worked okay.

We just put a 1.2k par hmi up in the projection booth pointing out of the projector window, tilted slightly down to favor the audience. Then we picked up the reverse shadows with a bit of bounce and controlled everything else we could with negative fill.

Also, we had to put the ballast on top of the building because it was buzzing so loudly, but that's another story entirely.
 
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