Lighting advice for car entrance scene?

F

firehawk

Veteran
Looking for ideas for this scenario:
The garage door opens and a convertible pulls in to join the party. The lights inside the venue are mostly tungsten which is obviously different from the outdoor sun.

When the car is outdoors it's daylight lit but as it pulls into the venue it becomes lit by both the tungsten lights and the daylight pouring in.
Once the car is all the way in the garage door shuts and the people get out.
This is a recurring event during different times of the day and year so the degree and temp of sun will change.

We are considering hanging some LED lights to help light the subject (car/people). 17000 lumens worth. Not enough?
I am thinking that daylight colored lights would be better than tungsten color so as to avoid the dramatic difference in color temp at the door area.
However, if we use daylight lights then the rest of the room will still be tungsten so any wide shots would show a daylight subject with a very warm colored room background. The venue indoors is a little dark.
Thoughts?
Here are some rough pics pull in 1.jpgpull in.jpg
 
Definitely better to go with daylight balanced units inside. If there are practical units that you can't gel here and there that go warm in the background, no big deal. The neon will do what it will do. As far as level, it depends obviously on the time of day, sunny or overcast etc. I wouldn't worry too much about variations in daylight color, a little bit of discrepancy won't feel out of place. I did a version of this for a commercial some years back, see at 4:12:

This was a much larger space and required bigger instruments, which were all HMI. When the camera is looking at the mark, he is lit by the ambient coming in the doorway, so I balanced everything to that so that the cameras could swing around as needed (this was obviously a one-take deal!) That resulted in pretty blown out exteriors but it makes visual sense this way.
 
firehawk said:
We are considering hanging some LED lights to help light the subject (car/people). 17000 lumens worth. Not enough?
Click to expand...

I can't estimate the lumens worth... but I would think you are gonna need a sh*t ton of daylight judging by how dark it is inside the venue (and if you don't want those trees to blow out like in your rough pic from the side angle). I would plan for several large (1200w ??) HMI units - say one or two (through a 12x12?) for the vehicle key and then maybe an additional 800w unit (or two) for the background. If there's places to hang out of frame - then you can fill in / backlight peeps from above. Assume this is for narrative - where you don't want blown out door.
 
Thank you very much Charles. I was hoping you would chime in with your expertise. I remember the Jeff G video you shared before and I was thinking about that when I posted my question actually.
I was thinking daylight would be the way to go (and that is what I told the venue owner) but wasn't sure. So I wanted to get thoughts from you guys.
 
Thank you very much Mark. I was thinking we'd need a lot more firepower then 17000 lumens too. The venue is used for events. I'll see if he will consider adding more light than his original plan. I'm pretty sure he won't go high power HMI. He's trying to go low cost and easy
 
firehawk said:
Thank you very much Mark. I was thinking we'd need a lot more firepower then 17000 lumens too. The venue is used for events. I'll see if he will consider adding more light than his original plan. I'm pretty sure he won't go high power HMI. He's trying to go low cost and easy
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Hate to be the one to say it, but that's not gonna get you firepower.

If you didn't have to drive the vehicle in, you could net it.
 
I'm assuming based on "This is a recurring event during different times of the day and year so the degree and temp of sun will change." that this will be a series, presumably non-scripted?

On the amount of firepower, I agree with the above. It's going to take a lot. On the Gordon spot I think we were probably two 2500's in Chimeras for the backlights, and M40 bounce from the right. That was a much bigger space of course. I'm guessing there isn't a lot of room behind where the pictures were taken in the garage, so it seems less likely to me that you are going to be able to afford a big rag like a 12x12 with lights behind...and your budget dictates otherwise.

The best way to handle this with limited firepower in my mind would be to shoot everything that doesn't see out the garage door during the afternoon, using natural ambience and augmenting with fill from camera or the other side. Using large bounces (white bedsheets if necessary!) against the off-camera side walls may help especially if sun hits them (but be careful of losing that as the sun moves). So basically you are balancing to a much lower exposure than with the door open.

Once the sun is down far enough and the ambient starts to drop, you can fall back and do the car entrance shots as seen above.

This may well not work with the type of material you are shooting, and it involves obvious planning and tight scheduling, but it is a helpful survival technique when you can't combat the actual daylight level, and one we use often!

Run & Gun--mne, I'd never want to net an opening that big it tends to read milky as it raises the blacks, you have to keep sun from hitting it, and you need something to help hide the hardware where it meets the ground. And assuming a tightly stretched double net, that's only a stop anyway which is something, but given a probable six or more stop difference between exterior and interior it's not enough to justify the funky look.
 
CharlesPapert said:
I'm assuming based on "This is a recurring event during different times of the day and year so the degree and temp of sun will change." that this will be a series, presumably non-scripted?

On the amount of firepower, I agree with the above. It's going to take a lot. On the Gordon spot I think we were probably two 2500's in Chimeras for the backlights, and M40 bounce from the right. That was a much bigger space of course. I'm guessing there isn't a lot of room behind where the pictures were taken in the garage, so it seems less likely to me that you are going to be able to afford a big rag like a 12x12 with lights behind...and your budget dictates otherwise.

The best way to handle this with limited firepower in my mind would be to shoot everything that doesn't see out the garage door during the afternoon, using natural ambience and augmenting with fill from camera or the other side. Using large bounces (white bedsheets if necessary!) against the off-camera side walls may help especially if sun hits them (but be careful of losing that as the sun moves). So basically you are balancing to a much lower exposure than with the door open.

Once the sun is down far enough and the ambient starts to drop, you can fall back and do the car entrance shots as seen above.

This may well not work with the type of material you are shooting, and it involves obvious planning and tight scheduling, but it is a helpful survival technique when you can't combat the actual daylight level, and one we use often!

Run & Gun--mne, I'd never want to net an opening that big it tends to read milky as it raises the blacks, you have to keep sun from hitting it, and you need something to help hide the hardware where it meets the ground. And assuming a tightly stretched double net, that's only a stop anyway which is something, but given a probable six or more stop difference between exterior and interior it's not enough to justify the funky look.
Click to expand...

Would wetting the driveway help?
 
Honestly from what little can be seen of the interior it appears rather dimly lit. 17K lumens is a drop in the bucket. If you want to light it cheap, I would suggest putting some white sheets on the ceiling (I can't really see the current color) and pumping a ton of light into them. Daylight balance would help, but you could go about halfway with tungsten lights gelled with some high temp 1/2 CTO. People are pretty accustomed to mixed color temps these days, plus cameras can handle it much better than in the past. To keep it cheap you can buy some floodlights from Home Depot and rig them up in the rafters. Just explain to the venue owner that such rigging takes time so it's best to leave the stuff there (warning: it's ugly) plus it will be a big power drain and generate a lot of heat.
 
shoot at dusk everytime you need that shot, then its just a color problem that should be solvable on a reasonable budget . Its either time or money. You'l never balance full daylight without spending big bucks on HMI's
 
CharlesPapert said:
It sure as s**t wouldn’t hurt! As would shooting when the sun is backlit to knock down the visible greens...or again, waiting until the exposure differences minimize, later in the afternoon.
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LOL!

Obviously nets are used all the time for many different things but how common are nets specifically for BGs in the drama world? Seems like they're more popular in broadcast/reality TV shows eg newscast, EPKs, cooking shows etc. I know lighting departments hate large nets because they're so expensive and delicate.
 
rob norton said:
LOL!

Obviously nets are used all the time for many different things but how common are nets specifically for BGs in the drama world? Seems like they're more popular in broadcast/reality TV shows eg newscast, EPKs, cooking shows etc. I know lighting departments hate large nets because they're so expensive and delicate.
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I can’t speak for everyone of course. Would rather use ND gel every time because it doesn’t change the look as I described above plus you can go much heavier and dial in a more specific look. Open doors are the main time I use them vs on windows, set bqck a little bit. I just find they end up making the background look a little fake, like a painted backdrop.

The joke I make is that on location we are always trying to balance and reduce contrast, then once we get on stage we start blowing out windows and burning highlights to make it look more real!
 
CharlesPapert said:
Run & Gun--mne, I'd never want to net an opening that big it tends to read milky as it raises the blacks, you have to keep sun from hitting it, and you need something to help hide the hardware where it meets the ground. And assuming a tightly stretched double net, that's only a stop anyway which is something, but given a probable six or more stop difference between exterior and interior it's not enough to justify the funky look.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I'm not generally a fan of nets. At least not since the SD days. I used them all the time back then. When you were trying to balance out a network LS or stand-up and only working with a 400 watt HMI and a silk they were life savers, but when we made the move to HD, they just generally looked bad(worse?) on-camera, especially when any light hit them the wrong way, not to mention it got much harder(almost impossible) to have a manageable sized net and frame to work with the wider 16:9 frame. I may have tried using a single net a handful of times early on, but doubles were definitely out. It's probably pushing 13-14 years since I've personally put a net in the background. I still see them used a lot on big outdoor covered stage "desk sets" and just as you noted, they generally make the background look like a grey/milky mess.

Side note: I was cleaning up some gear a year or two ago and went through some of my rags. Most, if not all of the black nets had turned very grey and dry-rotted.
 
WHat a wonderful loaction and prop :)

General advice..

1) never shoot entrances* . Shoot two shots instead.

2) I only shoot tungsten balance in a properly blacked out room like a studio.

--

OK this scene..

You have a massive daylight source. It is beautiful. You dont want white on the ceiling because you 'cant fight god with lights' (daylight) - you need to be using that amazing source and bouncing it back

You want 5 bedsheets (im being cheap) worth of reflection opposite the garage door - in fact shiney board (silver insulation board from the builders shop - 5 or six boards minimum)

If the tungstens are too yellow could you slap some 1/2 CTB on them so they read orange on camera but less orange than actual tungsten.

Repeating the scene on a different time of day? - dont worry - we dont correct for sunset we shoot it a 5.5k and enjoy the orange.

CUs Id be putting a daylight panel through some diff of course.

Remember you can swing a couple of thousand k in post.

Dont worry about continuity from WIDE to CU - its doesnt matter as long as you keep the key on the correct side.

Once you are done with the wide you could cheat the whole crowd out a couple of meters so they are more lit by the door.

Turn off any practical tung light that is not in shot or fully blue it.

Camera 5.5k , expose so the ext is 1/2 stop over but not blown.

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OK ive taken a failrly extreme point. Id also use every light I own too (which aint much) A big row of boards is the base - could you get a light just outside the door left to lift the people a bit? Shift the people a bit to frame left to get them out of the shadow, dodge them up a bit in post, dress a panel as a practical lighting them up a touch from the far wall, do a dedo skidmark on the right side wall to give it texture - all the tricks

*until you have proper van of lights.
 
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Thanks a lot everyone. I am trying to get him to send me some pics showing wider/deeper shots of the area so I can share.
The walls (and maybe ceiling) are green. Yes the floors are red and do bounce color. The ceiling is 12' high I believe.
He wants to install some lights and leave them there and the open the door and turn on the door lights at the same time. Then turn the door lighting off after the door shuts with the car inside.
When they have events there the car pulls in, door shuts and the people get out. Everyone claps and the party resumes.
It's unscripted events such as parties.
The wall opposite the garage door is maybe 50 feet away or more (and it's actually a garage door too) so putting something reflective to bounce off it won't be an option.
I guess anything we do is going to have to be hung from above since people roam around the entire room and it's an event venue 1st with video and photography being important but not priority. He is trying to accomplish some better footage than they can currently get.
Seems like some type of bounce could possibly be hung to bounce light angled down onto the subject
 
rob norton said:
Is this a short film? What's the shot - door opens, car enters, door closes? Or is it about the party's reaction?
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Yes that is the sequence. Here they come! Everyone cheers as door opens and they pull in. Door closes

In order of importance:
1. to see the people riding in sitting in the convertible (and see the convertible). Young people often sit up on the seat backs.
2. see the crowd cheer and clap in the background
 
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