Letus and Zacuto rig: Nice lookin'

[Kholi]

The Letus Rail System is on par with Zacuto quality. Hopefully we'll see more offerings from the Letus camp in modular camera support systems that rival the quality but for less.

Different discussion, but Tim: at the price point you paid for your adapter, just like the sacrifice you made with the HVX200, you can't have it all.

Even the 4k 35mm adapters have their drawbacks (light loss, etc). To throw the adapter developers in the ring like that might not be the best correlation when you consider what you ARE getting for thousands less than the "high end" competitors.

I get what you're saying, trust me. The way that you said it comes off odd, s'all and I don't think you mean to come off that way. If you do, then that's a different story. =P

 

[Tim Naylor]

I know the adaptor makers are a good deal, but I still feel no special love for them as long they still bring things out to market before designing them properly and fully testing them. I feel like every revision and new release is a big Beta test.

I do love the fact that they make adaptors for 1200 or less. But I also feel that there is a sizable market that would pay up to 3 - 4 grand for an adaptor with near Zacuto like quality and design. My Brevis, SG and LE all have various issues that bit me in the ass at some point. Flaws that could've been solved with thorough testing and more thought out design (another forum entirely).

I feel when Zacuto designs things, they think it out better than any adaptor maker. I'd love to know what their return rate is. And I think some of the adaptor makers who really want to own the market should take a look at how they do business. If they made a GG adaptor for 4 G, I'd snatch it up in a heartbeat because I know I'd have so few problems and it'd pay for itself because of that.

I want it all!!

 

[Kholi]

I know the adaptor makers are a good deal, but I still feel no special love for them as long they still bring things out to market before designing them properly and fully testing them. I feel like every revision and new release is a big Beta test.

I hear ya. I know that all of the guys do some beta-testing. The LetusEX even went through user beta-testing (Disjecta, Barry_Green, and Ryan Walters) and look at all the great things that changed? Still a bit more to go, but at the price point y'know. I think they've outdone not only themselves, but everyone. The Cinemek guys spent YEARS on their design, check out the footage.

I do love the fact that they make adaptors for 1200 or less. But I also feel that there is a sizable market that would pay up to 3 - 4 grand for an adaptor with near Zacuto like quality and design. My Brevis, SG and LE all have various issues that bit me in the ass at some point. Flaws that could've been solved with thorough testing and more thought out design (another forum entirely).

I'm agreeing here, as well. There's a market for 3-4 grand adapters, just not as large as 1000 - 1300 packages here. You're right, another thread entirely.

I feel when Zacuto designs things, they think it out better than any adaptor maker. I'd love to know what their return rate is. And I think some of the adaptor makers who really want to own the market should take a look at how they do business.

I agree. I can see a few of the adapter manufacturers/creators doing exactly this. Turning around how they create something. Cinemek and the Le brothers are prime examples and you can only expect their quality to get better. The Le brothers, on the business front, are THE model company to follow at the moment. That's my thought.

If they made a GG adaptor for 4 G, I'd snatch it up in a heartbeat because I know I'd have so few problems and it'd pay for itself because of that.

I want it all!!

If one gets released you'll be the one I expect to grab it up first! =P

 

[USLatin]

hehe... me too!!

but i have nowhere near the same budget as you Tim, yet I agree with you completely... Also, Pure drifting, I feel the same... if you have held a fully decked Arri or looked though a Panavision viewfinder, or panned a Panavision head while being pushed on a Fisher then you understand why they make equipment that good... and you understand why you don't see a lot of the moves on full budget projects, and you appreciate why $4k merely a drop in the bucket of support gear on a full budget half hour TV episode...

now of course it is all related to budget, but like Pure said, please don't insult companies that had the vision to make the pro head that an HVX can be if properly used into a real pro rig which makes some of those aspects of proper operation completely possible...

 

[puredrifting]

Hi all:

Tim, in regards to what you posted, I totally agree. Four grand isn't a lot of money for a killer 35mm adapter BUT, I suspect that few of the people actually buying all of these adapters are professional DPs. There are a few, like you, Ian and a few others but the majority of the buyers are people who are trying to do everything as cheaply as possible because they have no budget, students, hobbiests, speculators shooting pilots, etc.

I can tell you that I am pretty good friends with 5-6 working professional DPs who shoot big features and popular television shows. When I speak to them and tell them that I just bought a Letus Extreme rig, they don't have a clue as to what I am even talking about. Most of them have never even heard of Letus, Brevis, SG, Red Rock. I think that is a clue. The main market for 35mm adapters are people who are doing low end work and have little or no money. If they have money, they are buying REDs, etc. Sure, we know that Scorsese, etc. have bought HVXs but I don't think many of of them are going to do their next films on the HVX with a Brevis or Letus.

In reality, most of these adapters are Rube Goldberg contraptions that happen to work pretty well, but nonetheless are basically homemade types of products, I think that the market, so far, is from users who cannot drop $4,000.00 on an adapter so the market has gravitated toward "the sweet spot" between $1,000.00 and $1,500.00.

From a marketing standpoint, if Dennis or Wayne or the Le Bros. came out with the "Zacuto Quality Letus", I don't think that they would sell very many of them. To DPs, yes, but not even to many DPs. I think that the casual user/hobbiest will not pay more than what they cost right now. And the massive majority of buyers fall into this casual user category. Even myself, I look at the Letus as an effect, it's great for some things but totally a hindrance for other types of shoots that I do. I would not to be able to do many of the shots I need to do with any 35mm adapter, too bulky and complex but I love it for interviews, tabletop and beauty shots.

You do know that Zacuto has had an adapter in the works for quite a while? I tink I saw somewhere though that it was projected to sell in the $10,000.00 to $15,000.00 range? I could be wrong but I thought I recalled seeing a thread somewhere about this a while ago.

Anyway, I agree with what you are saying but as a business person, I am not sure if there investment in time/testing/resources and machining would pay for them to develop a more high-end adapter. Who knows, if enough of us keep buying Letus Extremes, maybe they will?

Dan

 

[USLatin]

I seriously doubt they will ever put out a 10-15k adapter... however I do believe the current companies will put out more refined versions. Less CA, better edge to edge consistency, and what have yous that I don't know enough about but they will barely go up in price if they do at all.
They are only worth it if you are going to use still glass right? So as soon as you make the adapter $10-15 you are way to close to the budget for a better camera and a few pieces of glass... so stretch yourself that little bit more...
While these two scenarios are not really overlapping they are in the same gray area... too close...?

Anywho... I really want the Zacuto rails now... I probably will regret getting the Catvision 15mm + 60mm hand grips but at 1/3 of the price it is hard not to, but I doubt I'll regret getting something like the Redrock shoulder pad at all...

 

[Joseph Stunzi]

I'm with you Roberto on the Zacuto vs. others.
I'm working on finishing up my Zacuto rig while at the same time working on a second rig. That Redrockmicro shoulder pad looks pretty cumfy. Maybe it will have memory foam!

 

[Tim Naylor]

re: PureDrifting
You got a point. At 4G, the market narrows drastically. The issues I have with the current crop of adaptors are not major fixes and would perhaps cost an additional 500 or so. ie) The LE lack of pressure plates/shoes for it's Allen screws and a way to center on HVX's, etc.; better dust seals on the Brevis; a sturdier shaft on the GG spinner on the SG and lose the plastic knobs; a lower cost front riser in place of Z risers; easy collimation; etc.

Otherwise, I think they're fantastic and blow away the high end PS mini at 1/5 the cost. I guess I'm getting picky because like Phillip Bloom, I find myself using the adaptors all the time for jobs I'd previously never used consider them. The more you use it, the more you demand from it.

You're right about alot of DP's being clueless about them. If you're strictly shooting film (commercial / feature guys), it never quite enters your world. But for those of us who straddle both worlds and never quite accepted the 1/3 inch blues, they're a god send.

I doubt Zacuto will ever get their adaptor to market since it gets you in RED territory. It's like SC's "Cineporter". Good idea. Too late.

Here's the big question though. I still can't come to terms spending a few G on a handheld set-up. So who out there can give first hand reports about the Cavision HH brace. Is it any good?

I spent a hundred bucks on the "Steady Stick". Unbelievable. I will not do behind the scenes work or interviews with out it. You can still get something cool for a 100 bucks. Just wondering if C visions HHeld set up is a deal.

 

[USLatin]

Tim, what brace is that? I went looking for what you were talking about but couldn't find it.
Also, where is that "Steady Stick" you mentioned?

I am looking at these hand grips as they are a bit wider which is much better for tilt and they would also work on 19mm rails.

http://www.cavision.com/rods/RS15HD105.htm

 

[Charles Lowthian]

Anyway, I agree with what you are saying but as a business person, I am not sure if there investment in time/testing/resources and machining would pay for them to develop a more high-end adapter.

In any business, releasing a product that is not finished (ie: a "beta" version) without stating to the buyer that it is a "trial", is not how you do business!

In essence, it seems a lot of the 35mm adapters in this market (ie: users on this forum), are trials. all the offcentre issues being reported is evidence that these adapters have not been crafted for their targeted, and stated cameras (eg: hvx200, hv20).

I see your point about "higher end" adapters, but i think the higher end aspects should relate to the image quality, the clarity of the glass, etc... NOT the alignment being completely off - resulting in zooming and loosing/cropping a great deal of any lens attached.

For a $2K adapter on a $5K camera, should we expect the same image as a $20K adapter on a $500K camera = NO.

BUT for any price, as a consumer or a proffessional buyer you should get a finished product.

It's not like Sony, releasing new models every week (exageration). The model you buy last week will be a finished camera. It will not have errors (unless recalled), instead, the only difference from that and a newer model will be perhaps the newer model produces a better image than the older one. Better being to do with new advancements in technology, and NOT due to them redesigning the lens to be in alignment with the image sensor.

Be it Sony, or a small independent company, they are both selling products that have expectations to be met. They should be actual versions, and not beta/trials that consumers/professionals (like us) are spending their money on, which inturn is merely providing the manufacturer with testing for a newer model to be released at the buyers expence.


Does my adapter allow me to emphasize depth of field in my images = YES
But there are issues with it that should have been fixed before releasing it to the buyer.

 

[puredrifting]

I
It's not like Sony, releasing new models every week (exageration). The model you buy last week will be a finished camera. It will not have errors (unless recalled),

Sony EX-1 vignetting debacle, cough, cough...

Dan

 

[USLatin]

which are the adapters that are not aligned?

I would suspect it must be the slower ones since they are not as fast as the others being that they only use a portion of the light. Sadly this would also use the lens off center which I can't see as a good thing if your lenses have slight problems towards the edges which would make you zoom in even more to avoid them?

Anywho... I just want this conversation to keep going as I am learning from it!

 

[Kholi]

In any business, releasing a product that is not finished (ie: a "beta" version) without stating to the buyer that it is a "trial", is not how you do business!

In essence, it seems a lot of the 35mm adapters in this market (ie: users on this forum), are trials. all the offcentre issues being reported is evidence that these adapters have not been crafted for their targeted, and stated cameras (eg: hvx200, hv20).

I see your point about "higher end" adapters, but i think the higher end aspects should relate to the image quality, the clarity of the glass, etc... NOT the alignment being completely off - resulting in zooming and loosing/cropping a great deal of any lens attached.

For a $2K adapter on a $5K camera, should we expect the same image as a $20K adapter on a $500K camera = NO.

BUT for any price, as a consumer or a proffessional buyer you should get a finished product.

It's not like Sony, releasing new models every week (exageration). The model you buy last week will be a finished camera. It will not have errors (unless recalled), instead, the only difference from that and a newer model will be perhaps the newer model produces a better image than the older one. Better being to do with new advancements in technology, and NOT due to them redesigning the lens to be in alignment with the image sensor.

Be it Sony, or a small independent company, they are both selling products that have expectations to be met. They should be actual versions, and not beta/trials that consumers/professionals (like us) are spending their money on, which inturn is merely providing the manufacturer with testing for a newer model to be released at the buyers expence.


Does my adapter allow me to emphasize depth of field in my images = YES
But there are issues with it that should have been fixed before releasing it to the buyer.

Not sure if you can really say that the image being off-center is something that should've been corrected or even could've been corrected flawlessly. Not every HVX200 will have the same offset, nor will any other camera. It's a flaw of the camera, not the adapter design.

The fact that the Adapter guys are offering you a solution to fix that on the adapter side is great. The Letus Extreme is definitely a finished product. There aren't any interchangeable screens because they know what they want to give the customer. There haven't been any revisions to the unit since the beta testers, only additional accessories like Mounts and Rail Systems.

I get what you're saying, but the issue that you outlined has nothing to do with the adapters. Realistically, no matter if they did or did not test for each and every camera, it would only go so far given that the offset is not predictable. The option to adjust on your own is the most reward and flexible for both sides of the camp.

 

[USLatin]

Which adapter allows for offset adjustments? Is it the Letus only?

 

[Kholi]

Which adapter allows for offset adjustments? Is it the Letus only?

The Brevis Flip unit has an offset option, I think it works on screw adjustment? The Letus version is a completely different animal and should see the light of day soon. I have no solid information on how the unit works.

 

[Charles Lowthian]

Not sure if you can really say that the image being off-center is something that should've been corrected or even could've been corrected flawlessly. Not every HVX200 will have the same offset, nor will any other camera. It's a flaw of the camera, not the adapter design.

I agree with you. the offset is due to the camera's zoom (path of 'travel').
My agenda was for the adapter companys to simply inform the potential buyer of the offset and perhaps provide example of how 'subtle' it is. "No vignetting" is not accurately describing the product.

The fact that the Adapter guys are offering you a solution to fix that on the adapter side is great. The Letus Extreme is definitely a finished product.

I created that diagram from my Letus Mini.

because they {Letus} know what they want to give the customer.

Despite my views on the offset, I am quite happy with the customer service Letus Direct provide

I get what you're saying, but the issue that you outlined has nothing to do with the adapters. Realistically, no matter if they did or did not test for each and every camera, it would only go so far given that the offset is not predictable.

If a company quotes a camera brand and specific model number to sell their product, then YES you should expect the product to be very much catered for that particular camera model.

The option to adjust on your own is the most reward and flexible for both sides of the camp.

I have not tried adjusting the alignment to reduce offset. Is this possible or are you referring to something else?

Regards,

Charles

 

[Kholi]

If a company quotes a camera brand and specific model number to sell their product, then YES you should expect the product to be very much catered for that particular camera model.

Sort-of kind-of on this. The actual adapter is universal. It says it will work for just about any camera, but never once is it mentioned it's specifically for a camera. So, you're right, if it were to be listed specifically for a camera then you would definitely expect it to be a much closer-to-perfect project. None of these adapters are. They can each be adapted to any camera; that includes the Letus Mini.

I have not tried adjusting the alignment to reduce offset. Is this possible or are you referring to something else?

Regards,

Charles

The Le brothers are working on an offset correction system that'll be totally different than simple nuts and bolts. Using screws and such to realign a unit can offset a few different factors. I don't know exactly what they have cooking, but rest-assured that it's going to be of Extreme quality; pun intended. xD

I get what you're saying overall. Just that every adapter on the market is universal, thus not camera specific.

 

[Charles Lowthian]

but never once is it mentioned it's specifically for a camera.

I opted not to name my adapter brand at the beginning, as I don't intend on picking on an individual company. But just for record, the Mini was advertised as "Designed and optimized for smaller cameras, such as the Canon HV20 and...". Anyway, I do look forward to seeing more products from Letus My Rails are currently in the mail.

 

[Charles Lowthian]

Sony EX-1 vignetting debacle, cough, cough...
Dan

haha yeah i know dan. that's why i said "unless recalled". i knew i should have used another brand as example hehe

 

[waefre]

I really don't have a problem with the smaller companies releasing their products though they may still have some bugs. The fact is they don't usually have the resources to do widespread tests so the first users are the beta testers and provide the feedback to change. At the same time the users reap the benefit of having the newest lowcost items. I'm sure the first redrock users were not complaining about not having to fork over 10K to have the sweet images then only available to the PS technik users, and the Redrocks still loaded with bugs.
There's a lot to be said for Zacuto and the really polished systems, but I'm glad we don't have to wait for everything to reach that point before we can use them. At the end of the day its all about getting the shot, and if my budget allows me to invest in some slightly less polished items that get the job done, then I'm in. I'm also glad they're not Sony, who are constantly releasing new models mainly because they're holding back and not creating a single camera that can do it all. That's why the RED camera is so big, no one is holding anything back. Sure there are bugs to work out but the offering is unparalelled by anything else on the market.

By the way I do own and love the Zacuto stuff.

I also Love My LEX