Leave the World Behind

[ahalpert]

1984 happened too, the society we live in, revisionism, cancel culture, thought policing, disinformation, miniplenty, deepfake.

To varying degrees. Certainly, now that we're all carrying cameras and microphones that never turn off, we've invited the surveillance voluntarily, and Snowden showed what they can do with that.

But I think 1984 was a specific commentary on communism, and you see the the accuracy of its description there. You can't search for Tianenmen Square in China and find anything about the protest or tank man. And an army of revisionist historians, both government employees and private citizens, have filled the information gap.

I think that adversarial politics in the US prevents the type of total control described in the book. January 6 is the perfect example. There are still 2 sides to the story being told. And even when historical documents disappear -- such as when the Guardian recently took down Bin Laden's "letter to America" after it became a viral tiktok topic -- at least the document wasn't kept online and doctored. Cancel culture is nothing new, it's just more prevalent now. And it's not as if people pretend the canceled people never existed.

It's only when both major parties and all other relevant powerful institutions agree on a topic that you see the kind of massive information control described in the book.

By contrast, Brave New World was in my opinion more descriptive of the society we live in (and what that society will become on its current trajectory). For full disclosure, I read the book 15+ years ago. I didn't read it for a class or read any commentary on it. And I stopped reading it halfway through when it got boring. But I was really taken with the beginning of the book, where it described the mechanisms of the society and economy. It was an eye-opening depiction of my own society.

In the book, the entire society and its government are oriented around maximizing production. Just as our own is. (When I was a kid, I was always confused by the focus on GDP and the Dow. And sure, you might say that it's good to maximize those. But there are many other metrics of societal health we could focus on, such as median income or life expectancy or the poverty rate or homelessness rate or fertility rate.)

And family and work structures are organized around that goal. Everybody is a test tube baby and "vivisection" is seen as a grotesque practice of the past. (Most people aren't test tube babies these days, but people increasingly turn to fertility treatments to compensate for delaying child rearing until later in life for the sake of furthering their careers. Some Silicon Valley firms even offer free egg freezing (which is a scam) to their employees to incentivize delaying pregnancy. And most people still raise their own children, but if they're busy with work and have enough money they can usually outsource almost all of the child-rearing. You can even pay a surrogate to carry the baby for you.)

Children are born into different classes (Alpha, Delta, etc) that are destined for different jobs and raised accordingly. The future leaders of society are pampered and overeducated from their embryo stage. Future elevator operators are bathed in alcohol as embryos. (Although various conditioning like this isn't government-mandated in our society, it is in some ways cultivated by government policies.)

People devote all week to slavish labor and then blow off steam on the weekend with an orgy fueled by drugs that have been perfected to erase their memories and leave no hangover.

Toys and products are increasingly complicated for no good reason and are designed to fall apart after a short time so that people will have to buy more.

Anyway, one of the reasons I brought up the book was because I was curious if your interest in family values would bolster your support for the book's critique.

It's not much related to the discussion of Leave the World Behind, but I'm interested in how big picture conservatism might react to some of these themes.

Back on topic of the film - I was thinking about how you said I was glass half full because I think I try to live virtuously. And I thought - it's sort of glass half full to think that you're surrounded by good people. (I agree that most people have good nature and generally try to do the right thing and want to think of themselves as good.) But it's sort of funny to contrast that with the conservative ideas that we need to have a strong military because the world is full of bad people. And we need to have a strong police force for the same reason. And we all need to own guns. That's a lot of trouble to go to if you think people are so good.

 

[jmone]

There has never been a better time to be alive. The average human today is better off than any of their ancestors on all the big metrics, you
- Earn More
- Work Less
- Live Longer
- Have less chance of being killed in a Homicide
- Have higher Social Security spending
- Better Educated
- Less chance of living in poverty

Yeah, the world is really going to the dogs.

 

[Tom Roper]

Let me offer some clarification, Abe.

I said good people are all around you, you just have to open your eyes to them because the impression you were giving is pessimism. You said only about 10-20% of people are virtuous. If a person says in a generalized way that most people are not virtuous, it's just an unproven value judgment expressed as an opinion. But when you attach the percentage to the opinion it implies quantifiable knowledge. You don't have that, no one does. Rules are objective. You follow the rules or you break them. This can be tracked quantifiably. Virtuous and not-virtuous are not universally applied, percentages cannot track who is or isn't. When a person does that, it is judgmental, elitist, morally superior, exceptional; which you said you are not but I used a metaphor not to say that you were an example of a glass half full person. Remember a metaphor is not an example of, it is a comparison between two unlike things; not in this case of a glass half-full or half-empty, but rather between 20% who believe a glass can be half-full and 80% who believe a glass can be half-full, or by extension for the 80% of the unvirtuous, there are still good people in that group doing good things. I hope that helps.

 

[Paul F]

Yeah, the world is really going to the dogs.

The world is always going to the dogs. It is a perspective of life for some reason. Watch old TV shows from the '50s and '60s and see adults saying how terrible children are. Just like adults today like to dump on Millennials. It's just what we do. When I was young, we blamed the previous generation for everything just like people blame the Boomers now. And why not. Who else is there to blame.

As far as going to the dogs. Well, having grown up in the '60s, I'd say that decade was madness compared to today. The real scare, and it was real, was complete destruction from 'atom bombs'. Assassinations, riots, civil unrest, ...... the riots in Portland? Ha, those were nothing compared to the riots of the '60s. Or maybe it seems so to me as things are much more impressionable to a younger mind.

Overall, I'd say things are not going to the dogs any worse than they ever had. ..... except for one thing - population and the exponential consumption of limited resources. There's only so much of everything to go around and eventually one or more things are going to run out.

 

[ahalpert]

There has never been a better time to be alive. The average human today is better off than any of their ancestors on all the big metrics, you
- Earn More
- Work Less
- Live Longer
- Have less chance of being killed in a Homicide
- Have higher Social Security spending
- Better Educated
- Less chance of living in poverty

Yeah, the world is really going to the dogs.

I'm not really sure what this is responding to. But hey why not.

On average, Americans earn in real terms 10% more than they did 60 years ago.



Except those gains have all gone to higher-income workers



Americans work substantially more than we used to (unlike the Europeans).



The explosion of part-time workers brings down the average hours worked per week while increasing the total hours worked and masking the fact that full-time workers work the same amount.



Life expectancy in the US lags other rich countries and sharply declined during the pandemic while theirs did not.



The US has enjoyed lower homicide rates in the past and is setting new records for the lowest percentage of murders solved by police. https://nypost.com/2023/02/28/us-hom...-all-time-low/



I'm not sure about social security spending. I think it's indexed for inflation and it looks to me like it's stayed the same as before, although people pay more in taxes to it now, so maybe they get more back.

Better educated, agreed.

The total poverty rate has been stagnant for 50 years.



Looking more closely, the poverty rate for the elderly has been steadily declining. But for children, it has been rising since 1970.

 

[jmone]

Brave New World has already happened.

1984 happened too

I'm not really sure what this is responding to. But hey why not.

I was countering the statements that we live in some dystopian world. I enjoyed "1984" and to a lesser extent "Brave New World" but as with "Leave the world behind" they are fiction... even if they do have insights into the past, present and future. There may be elements that you can point to, but you are certainly not living the life of "Winston Smith" or as a Proletarian.

The average human today is better off than any of their ancestors on all the big metrics

On average, Americans....

Yeah... not the same thing is it? Not even close. Over 95% of people are not American.

The global, long-term trends for Humanity is great on all those metrics. No doubt, if you drill down to a specify sub sections of humanity (countries, states, cities, town, communities, families, individuals, whatever) that their particular situation and trends is, well... just that, particular to that sub demographic. I saw some doco that West Virginians have been declining on a whole bunch of these metrics for the last 100 years. While it is horrific for these communities and individuals, it does not counter my points about the global trends for the "average human".

I don't want to diss the specific challenges that Americans face. I'm sure they are many and varied. Likewise, I'd not want to diminish the shared challenges we all face. That said, I'm still gunning for how amazing civilization is, and can't wait to see how the next generation pushes ever forward. While there are dips (Wars, Great Leaps Forward, Pandemics etc), each generation overall is an improvement on the last.

We don't live in a dystopian world. Man did land on the Moon. We are not ruled by Lizard People.

I do not subscribe to a vision of ‘If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – for ever."

 

[ahalpert]

I was countering the statements that we live in some dystopian world. I enjoyed "1984" and to a lesser extent "Brave New World" but as with "Leave the world behind" they are fiction... even if they do have insights into the past, present and future. There may be elements that you can point to, but you are certainly not living the life of "Winston Smith" or as a Proletarian.

That's why your response was confusing. You referred to indicators of longevity and prosperity, but the dystopian scenario in Brave New World doesn't revolve around impoverished citizens with short lifespans. It depicts an affluent industrial society similar to ours.

Its social critique delves into themes of freedom, truth, and human nature. Is it justifiable to forfeit your inherent nature, individuality, and freedom in exchange for health and wealth? In my view, 1984 critiques communism, while Brave New World scrutinizes consumerist capitalism. BNW exaggerates our society to drive home its point, but the shoe fits.

Not every modern society is like that. You don't have to adhere strictly to traditional farming or hunting-gathering lifestyles. However, it's crucial to ponder the values we wish to uphold and the goals we want to pursue.

Leave the World Behind isn't a dystopia. It's more like a disaster movie. The intriguing aspect, for me, lies in the characters' reactions to the unfolding situation.

I believe climate change subtly permeates the movie as a theme. While I don't foresee humanity's extinction due to climate change, the repercussions will be profoundly disruptive. Over the next century, we may witness the displacement of hundreds of millions, if not billions, due to extreme weather, rising sea levels, and the specter of famine or war. New York City will probably be hit hard, as will coastal communities in Florida and California generally.

Yeah... not the same thing is it? Not even close. Over 95% of people are not American.

I have exclusively analyzed and compared these works within the framework of American society. As I mentioned, this is why I find 1984 less pertinent overall (although it gains relevance in discussions about China). Of course, the US does export its technology and cultural/economic system globally, but there are undoubtedly other affluent industrial nations with more egalitarian educational systems, increased social mobility, regulations against surrogacy, and a greater emphasis on valuing art and intellectual pursuits over monetary concerns.

The global, long-term trends for Humanity is great on all those metrics. No doubt, if you drill down to a specify sub sections of humanity (countries, states, cities, town, communities, families, individuals, whatever) that their particular situation and trends is, well... just that, particular to that sub demographic. I saw some doco that West Virginians have been declining on a whole bunch of these metrics for the last 100 years. While it is horrific for these communities and individuals, it does not counter my points about the global trends for the "average human".

Certainly... However, no one ever met the challenges of their day by resting on their laurels. I'm sure that enslaved African-Americans in the antebellum South likely found little solace in GDP trends or the average income and longevity of the nation.

I think that Americans are overworked and often lack sufficient time to spend with their children, particularly working mothers. The dystopian aspect emerges when individuals internalize the values of the economic system, convinced that what benefits the GDP automatically benefits them.

I do not subscribe to a vision of ‘If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – for ever."

Once more - 1984. This scenario is more reminiscent of China. In China, there exists a social credit system that curtails privileges and freedom of movement based on factors like online criticism of the government. China also boasts an extensive mass surveillance system, which they are exporting to totalitarian regimes globally. Social media had initially been a tool of liberation (as in the Arab Spring). But now that intelligence agencies have mastered it, it has become for them an invaluable tool for ferreting out dissidents.

 

[jmone]

Both books are about total authoritarian control over the population (though their methods differ).

The 1984 reference was for Tom (as he said 1984 has happened)... plus you have to admit that the quote is pretty epic (and a better one liner than anything in BNW).

Anyway, I'm pleased to meet someone from a society where you were created in a hatchery, DNA altered, have no concept of family, relationship, love or even offspring (and are perpetually stoned). You have to be thrilled that the Global Authoritarian Government decided they needed a wedding videographer and constructed you to perform that so well. Beats being an Epsilon! See glass half full

Let's both take a soma and chill (just don't let on about the existence of your wife and kids or you / they will get exiled for antisocial behavior).

 

[Tom Roper]

Besides the origin of the universe, some things not covered, entanglement entropy, gravitational singularity. But as to dystopian themes of Leave the World behind, I can enjoy it for the fiction it is, but can't go along with the undeserving high praise for its dialogues for the reasons I stated, potty language. Language itself is an art form, swearing colorful but here it's repetitive, incessant, unimaginative. The very fact that it is interpreted here as an enhancement form for realism harkens me to the line from Bullitt. "You're living in a sewer, Frank."

 

[ahalpert]

Besides the origin of the universe, some things not covered, entanglement entropy, gravitational singularity. But as to dystopian themes of Leave the World behind, I can enjoy it for the fiction it is, but can't go along with the undeserving high praise for its dialogues for the reasons I stated, potty language. Language itself is an art form, swearing colorful but here it's repetitive, incessant, unimaginative. The very fact that it is interpreted here as an enhancement form for realism harkens me to the line from Bullitt. "You're living in a sewer, Frank."

Should I get angry at a movie about rednecks (say, Shotgun Stories) because it's full of guns and I don't like guns? They use guns like some folks use swear words. Anyway, Ali's character didn't swear (if I recall correctly) which suggests that the screenwriters weren't using swear words incessantly. They wrote his character as someone who didn't curse, which made sense to me with what else we knew about him.

There was nothing in the rest of the dialogue that I don't hear in real life. Maybe I'm just living in a sewer.

 

[aram]

By London's standard, there was no swearing in that film.

 

[Tom Roper]

As part of their analysis, the authors define verbal abuse, which often involves hostility, psychological control, intimidation, vulgarity, and humiliation. At its core, people have become desensitized to violence, domestic abuse, sexual abuse, verbal abuse. Children are experiencing a desensitization to violence resulting in altered perceptions of how others’ experience pain and whether or not violence is a solution.

Reversing real-life violence desensitization in children (pulsus.com)
The Long-Term, Underappreciated Damage of Verbal Abuse | Psychology Today

 

[ahalpert]

Both books are about total authoritarian control over the population (though their methods differ).

The 1984 reference was for Tom (as he said 1984 has happened)... plus you have to admit that the quote is pretty epic (and a better one liner than anything in BNW).

Anyway, I'm pleased to meet someone from a society where you were created in a hatchery, DNA altered, have no concept of family, relationship, love or even offspring (and are perpetually stoned). You have to be thrilled that the Global Authoritarian Government decided they needed a wedding videographer and constructed you to perform that so well. Beats being an Epsilon! See glass half full

Let's both take a soma and chill (just don't let on about the existence of your wife and kids or you / they will get exiled for antisocial behavior).

I don't find BNW interesting because of the authoritarian aspect. Any authoritarian system is oppressive. What's interesting to me is how the entire society is oriented around maximizing production and consumption, just like ours is. Family and social traditions have been upended for those goals. And the citizenry has been indoctrinated to approve.

There are many variations of this clock floating around:



Many people don't even consider caffeine a drug anymore because they can't imagine getting by without it.

Hatcheries -- no, not quite yet. But I know working women who put their babies in day care when they're 2 weeks old. Between daycare and after-school programs, you hardly need to see your child at all.

When war broke out in Ukraine, there was an entire hatchery of surrogate babies stranded there. Ukraine has a thriving surrogacy business because it's European but relatively poor. And they don't prohibit commercial surrogacy unlike many other European countries.

Soon, you won't even need a surrogate. Scientists are experimenting with carrying sheep fetuses to term in artificial wombs.

DNA alteration will start with selecting embryos to avoid diseases like sickle cell anemia. Then it will move to selecting for hair color and height genes. Gender selection already happens with IVF (which is itself a key player in the process of artificially assisted reproduction for the sake of delaying child rearing for the sake of maximizing productivity). Then eventually you get to buying and incorporating designer genes isolated from the genomes of famous individuals.

Sorting into classes -- well-to-do urbanites enroll their children in preschools which market their record for feeding graduates into private elementary schools that eventually feed into the best colleges. Then they have legacy admissions advantage at those colleges (if they didn't already) so the next generation can follow suit.

Younger folks can get by for years or decades with no concept of love or relationships, ordering up mates by app like in Logan's Run. If they didn't need a partner to reproduce, maybe they could carry on that way forever.

 

[jmone]

Just to refresh you memory of what you said.

Brave New World has already happened. That was a description of the society we currently live in

This is objectively false (emphasis in the above quote added by me).

Quoting from your last response, statements of "not quite yet" / "will start with" / "Then it will move to" / "Then eventually" are just your predications that do not align with your original statement that it has "already happened" and "we currently live in". Even projecting into the future is an uncertain business. I'd have far less issue if your absolutist statement was more tempered along the lines of "I fear we are going down the path of BNW (add reasoning).."

--------------
PS (I'm out on a limb with this one but I'll ask the question): I'm not even sure you meant the original comment as hyperbole? ...but maybe an expression of your fears on what you think will come to pass unless we "change our ways"? Not sure, but if that is correct, I've a sandwich board for you.

View attachment R.f62e21d89207647e03ebcfd5394fae18?rik=v4lt4%2fltD%2fganA&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.dustoffthebible....jp

 

[CharlesPapert]

Almost entirely based on the incredibly polarized points of view on this movie presented by Abe and Doug, I watched this last night. I'm going Switzerland on this one, I'm somewhere between you guys. Or as Harry Shearer says in Spinal Tap about being positioned between fire and ice, I'm lukewarm water. It was entertaining enough that I didn't feel like I wasted my time, but I also can't say I loved it. Yes, plot and logic holes. Yes, it's visually enjoyable, although I felt it was overdone with the overhead tracking shots and rotated frames. From a straight performance level, only a few moments that really landed notably for me. It was, I felt, a serviceable streaming movie (although clearly had pretention to be greater than that).

 

[Doug Jensen]

From a straight performance level, only a few moments that really landed notably for me. It was, I felt, a serviceable streaming movie (although clearly had pretention to be greater than that).

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that summation. I'd have never posted anything about this movie at all, and would have forgotten the whole thing by now, if it wasn't for the original post that started this thread. I just could not stand on the sidelines and let this kind of gushing review go by without some kind of push back . . .

I can't say enough good things about this movie so I'll say nothing at all. Don't walk -- run. (To your couch, since it's on Netflix.)
I'm finally ready to agree that streamers can produce Cinema with a capital C.

A McDonalds hamburger is a McDonalds hamburger. Take it for what it is, but please don't insult my intelligence by telling me it is as good as a steak.

 

[ahalpert]

. It was, I felt, a serviceable streaming movie (although clearly had pretention to be greater than that).

How would you guys compare its originality and technical execution to a movie like Reptile? Reptile is, for me, a perfect example of a recent well-executed streaming movie that looks and feels like many other I've seen. For me, Leave the World Behind was far more interesting. And even if you think the fancy and unusual camera moves were overdone, there were even just a lot of static shots with unusual and, in my opinion, beautiful and effective framing devices.

Also, although it probably doesn't make much difference to read this if it didn't work for you in the first place, the director said the movie is intended to be surreal and sort of vibes-based. Which happens to be something I enjoy:

• Leave the World Behind is meant to be experienced as a dream turning into a nightmare, not analyzed logically.
• The movie is not meant to be dissected and analyzed in a detached, logical way; it should be felt and experienced instead.

https://screenrant.com/leave-the-wo...rld Behind is,warning that something is wrong.

 

[CharlesPapert]

It's good to read what Esmail's intent was, but therein lies the problem with telling people how to view one's work: he says we need to feel and experience it, but I was relatively detached to the goings-on because I couldn't relate to much of the emotional responses shown within the film. If I knew the **** was hitting the fan to that global degree, I wouldn't be dancing to records or getting high and flirting by the pool, I'd be a nervous wreck having panic attacks--but that's not this film. True dreamscapes, I think, are more surreal than this....but also tend to be less accessible, though (see: David Lynch films).

I haven't seen Reptile, so can't compare.

 

[Doug Jensen]

I haven't seen Reptile, so can't compare.

I haven't seen seen Reptile, either.
I usually enjoy anything David Lynch creates.

 

[ahalpert]

It's good to read what Esmail's intent was, but therein lies the problem with telling people how to view one's work: he says we need to feel and experience it, but I was relatively detached to the goings-on because I couldn't relate to much of the emotional responses shown within the film. If I knew the **** was hitting the fan to that global degree, I wouldn't be dancing to records or getting high and flirting by the pool, I'd be a nervous wreck having panic attacks--but that's not this film. True dreamscapes, I think, are more surreal than this....but also tend to be less accessible, though (see: David Lynch films).

I haven't seen Reptile, so can't compare.

Well, they don't know that **** is hitting the fan yet. The information vacuum is partly what's keeping them immobilized, especially since we're acclimated to constant information overload.

The subdued reaction is, I think, also an exaggeration of modern behavior for the purpose of illustration. They nearly get hit by an oil tanker because they're too complacent to move their butts. Then they go get Starbucks. Events are all neatly compartmentalized and they fail (like us) to grapple with the most serious issues looming over them. (Some people would argue that the world is, in fact, burning. And we're just flirting by the pool.)

I may agree that there isn't a strong signal either formally or through the plot or dialogue that would indicate to interpret the story surrealistically. But it wasn't a problem for me. I felt like it made total sense.

Reptile was a fine film, just kind of run of the mill. No glaring plot holes. No unusual camerawork. Looked like other Netflix films. I would call it a serviceable streaming film. And I'd say that Leave the World Behind was way more memorable and surprising.

I've never been a big David Lynch fan. I don't think I have a problem with his formal approach, although I don't find it particularly captivating. I think the truth is I don't share his interests, which seem focused on power dynamics and domination. I enjoyed Twin Peaks but found it somewhat problematic.