Kodak's Truesense Imaging creates 4K 4/3 chip

Going purely by the specs, it doesn't seem to be better than the slightly bigger Cmosis CMV12000 in any respect.

Edit: well, it has a rolling shutter mode that could be interesting:
cmv12000 global shutter: full well 13500 e-, read noise 13 e-, dynamic range 60 dB (10 stops)
kac12040 global shutter: full well 16000 e-, read noise 26 e-, dynamic range 55 dB (9 stops)
kac12040 rolling shutter: full well 16000 e-, read noise 4 e-, dynamic range 72 dB (12 stops)

rolling shutter seems pretty fast (<14ms), but the sensor doesn't seem to have an HDR mode like the cmv12000, and I don't think 12 stops will cut it nowadays
 
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They also presented a 2K sensor with 13 stops of DR. Might be the actual sweetspot. I would choose something like that any time over a mediocre 4K sensor that also causes a PITA in post.
 
Sensor data may not accurately reflect DR performance in a camera circuit. Sony claims 14 stops for the F5/F55, but the SN ratio is listed as 57dB with noise reduction off.
 
joe 1008 said:
They also presented a 2K sensor with 13 stops of DR. Might be the actual sweetspot. I would choose something like that any time over a mediocre 4K sensor that also causes a PITA in post.
Click to expand...

Really, I would LOVE it if someone would just make a 2K camera that does HD and Raw, besides Alexa. I think that 2K does fine in 4K cinema and might prove so much more useful for most of us not doing blockbusters with tons of VFX. I feel like the whole industry just passed 2K up for no good reason. 13 stops!

Look at all the trouble Sony is having trying to derive 2K from their 4K sensors, aliasing, swapping out OLPFs.. oy! Somebody wants 2K.

Wait... oh yeah, just checking my schedule. No blockbusters on there ;)
 
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hscully said:
Really, I would LOVE it if someone would just make a 2K camera that does HD and Raw, besides Alexa. I think that 2K does fine in 4K cinema and might prove so much more useful for most of us not doing blockbusters with tons of VFX. I feel like the whole industry just passed 2K up for no good reason. 13 stops!

Look at all the trouble Sony is having trying to derive 2K from their 4K sensors, aliasing, swapping out OLPFs.. oy! Somebody wants 2K.

Wait... oh yeah, just checking my schedule. No blockbusters on there ;)
Click to expand...

From what I understand the issue is only related to deriving 2k RAW from 4k sensor because of pixel-binning, any sensor used this way to record 2k RAW from bayer pattern sensor would have this issue. If you shoot HD or 2k with Sony's 4k cameras using internal codec there is no problem I or others have seen.
 
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hscully said:
Wait... oh yeah, just checking my schedule. No blockbusters on there ;)
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How many cameras are there that really use the full potential of good ol' HD - resolution wise, codec wise, DR-wise? In the affordable price range? Most are soft, or use 8 bit or have moiré or limited DR. None - correct me if I'm wrong - is close to perfect. 4K in my view is too early. Within two or three years that will probably have changed, also with regard to post production.
 
hscully said:
Really, I would LOVE it if someone would just make a 2K camera that does HD and Raw, besides Alexa. I think that 2K does fine in 4K cinema and might prove so much more useful for most of us not doing blockbusters with tons of VFX. I feel like the whole industry just passed 2K up for no good reason. 13 stops!

Look at all the trouble Sony is having trying to derive 2K from their 4K sensors, aliasing, swapping out OLPFs.. oy! Somebody wants 2K.

Wait... oh yeah, just checking my schedule. No blockbusters on there ;)
Click to expand...

There's always the D-Bolex and Ikonoskop. They shoot HD in raw. It's not quite 2K, but 1920x1080 isn't too far behind. They both use S16 CCD sensors.
Ikonoskop is having some financial troubles, though.
 
vanvideo said:
There's always the D-Bolex and Ikonoskop. They shoot HD in raw. It's not quite 2K, but 1920x1080 isn't too far behind. They both use S16 CCD sensors.
Ikonoskop is having some financial troubles, though.
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Neither cameras are an option at the moment. Ikonoskop is going under, Digital Bolex is also not being sold. As the matter of fact they are still in a prototype phase, and who knows what the actual cameras will ship. People ***** and complain about delays by BlackMagic, but the truth is you are way more likely to get Pocket or Production models before DB ships in any meaningful quantities. Even if DB is done and finished, there is going to be maybe few hundred units hitting open market, and even DB can't really tell when. So at the moment only BMDCC and PC are an option for actual purchase.
 
What does "ships in any meaningful quantities" mean exactly?
If one company ships 100 cameras, to you that is less meaningful than another company that doesn't ship a few thousand?
DB will be taking more pre-orders as soon as they deliver the first 100 cams.
In higher and higher quantities each time. To me that is meaningful because if you want one you can buy one.
 
Samuel H said:
I'm fine with 2K too, but the KAI-02170 is even smaller (1", or 14.2mm wide, 2.5x crop factor).
http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com.es/2012/10/truesense-imaging-announces-1080p60-ccd.html
There are enough S16 (12.5mm wide) cameras out there, with pBMC and Dbolex.
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Seems they presented three sensors. I referred to the KAI-04070 - with a strange square design 2048 x 2048. But I checked the size and still not real Micro4/3: Only 15,2 mm wide. That's BlackMagic area, right?
 
pitstain said:
What does "ships in any meaningful quantities" mean exactly?
If one company ships 100 cameras, to you that is less meaningful than another company that doesn't ship a few thousand?
DB will be taking more pre-orders as soon as they deliver the first 100 cams.
In higher and higher quantities each time. To me that is meaningful because if you want one you can buy one.
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The answer to your question is very simple- it means I can call a company or retailer and buy one. On the other hand I will never place a pre-order again. As a buyer I will not give anyone money in exchange for a promise of some future date delivery. So I guess if DB will be taking pre-orders only I will not buy one, or I will be trying to find a used one.
 
That's fair. But it's entirely your specific set of criteria that you've self determined. You want to call BandG or Adorama and buy your camera. That is when it's meaningful to you.

DB will not be selling through them in the near future, but they will be warranty the cameras 1 year as most cameras mfg do. So for others, meaningful quantities could mean 100, 500, 1000.

The point is that the cameras are coming, as much as anyone wants to pretend they're not, they are coming, and you'll be able to buy one [from them, not amazon].
 
Back to the topic, I think the new sensors are looking very promising. I think MFT size is a great addition and for run and gun is far better then FF or even S35- plenty of out of focus crap on vimeo to back up my statement.
 
starcentral said:
From what I understand the issue is only related to deriving 2k RAW from 4k sensor because of pixel-binning, any sensor used this way to record 2k RAW from bayer pattern sensor would have this issue. If you shoot HD or 2k with Sony's 4k cameras using internal codec there is no problem I or others have seen.
Click to expand...

I understand. The internal codec is "down rezzing" the full 4K image so no problem with artifacts but thus the alternate optical filter for better 2K. I'm very into the new Sony cameras F5/F55. I was just thinking that if someone made a 2K camera that would never be 4K that I would certainly be interested in that, especially if it could afford better dynamic range, make a nice 2K raw image and HD, lower storage and easier post. I hope I have this right but isn't the Alexa, or at least the "older" one, 2K?

Someone else posted about Digital Bolex or Ikonoshop but I'm interested in an s35 like that. Is anyone else? Maybe not. Then, I think manufacturers should make just the one for me then... oh and while you're at it keep the price down! ;)
 
hscully said:
I was just thinking that if someone made a 2K camera that would never be 4K that I would certainly be interested in that, especially if it could afford better dynamic range, make a nice 2K raw image and HD, lower storage and easier post. I hope I have this right but isn't the Alexa, or at least the "older" one, 2K?
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The trouble is that with a 2k Bayer starting point, deBayering will always mean the output luminance will be substantially less than 2k. (75-80% is the generally accepted figure.)

Off the top of my head, I believe the Alexa is about 2880 photosites horizontally - hence after deBayering you can expect res of about 2300. So more than good enough when downsampled for full HD res, and the potential extra gives room for the OLPF to look after aliasing without softening the image. (I think the F3 is similar, maybe not quite as many as 2880.)

With a 4k chip, if you want 2k/1080, the best options will be to either take the whole chip RAW, then downconvert for 2k/1080, *OR* do as the C300 does and derive 2k/1080 by taking the photosites in 2x2 Bayer blocks, and derive the 2k/1080 that way. But 2k RAW from a 4k chip is always going to be a compromise, likely meaning pixel skipping with all the issues that generates.

My feeling is that if you must have RAW, deal with it at the sensor native resolution.
 
harddrive said:
The trouble is that with a 2k Bayer starting point, deBayering will always mean the output luminance will be substantially less than 2k. (75-80% is the generally accepted figure.)
Click to expand...

This is not true. The luminance resolution of a Bayer image is the full pixel resolution of the whole sensor as a monochrome sample. Chroma resolution is lower than 3-chip or Foveon sensors. But sophisticated debayer processing is a 4 vector matrix: Luminance + RGB each as discrete value sets. The Bayer pattern process is the closest electronic mimic of the way the human eye resolves both luminance and color.
The problem with its use in video cameras is the crude debayer processes needed to meet real time frame rate requirements with limited processing power. Hence the resulting artifacts and excessive loss of luminance and chroma resolution.

Regardless of whether a camera uses one chip or 3, oversamples or not, the optical luminance resolution of the final image is Nyquist limited by the output format to about 85% of the format pixel resolution unless one is willing to suffer significant aliasing artifacts. For 1080p delivery formats, including HD and 2k 1:85 the practical limit to vertical resolution is around 850 TV lines or 425 clean line pairs per height. Very few cameras actually make this, Bayer or not.
 
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