khz... bit rates... Zoom H4N & GH1

T

tikigod19

Well-known member
hi all,
I received my H4N today and plan on using it for a wedding this weekend. Whilst testing I noticed that when I import a 96khz wav into a 48khz (the default) timeline in premiere I get a quiet high squeal sound. When I edit the sequence settings to 96khz all is fine.

My question is what mode should I put the H4N on if I intend on mixing it on a timeline with an song which is 44.1khz? Should I reduce quality and set the H4N to 44.1khz so that it matches the song or record as high a quality as possible (96khz) and just remember to set the project up as 96khz to get rid of the high pitched squeal. If I do this will it affect the sound of the 44.1 song?

The finished product will be DVD and it will be mixed with other chapters created using 48k projects.

One final thing, once I have decided on the Khz of the file, what difference does the bit rate make? Is it just a case of choosing the highest bit rate possible or is there a chance of issues being created if I mis match to the configuration of the project file (as was the case when importing a 96khz file into a 48k project)

I hope that makes sense. Thanks in advance for any advice.
 
Most of your clients and people on this board could not blindly pick out the difference between 24bit/96khz .wav and 16 bit/44.1khz 128Mbps .mp3. You will do fine with 24 bit/48k or 16 bit/48k and you can save a ton of SD card space. I use mine at weddings and record the entire reception, sometimes 5 hours. Just make sure to stop recording before 4 gigs (i think) as it can cause issues. That is 1 file over 4 gigs. You can stop then start again. I use Plural Eyes to sync in post.
 
Your not loosing quality going to 48 VS 96. Possibly IF you had some very high end gear AND were recording the right thing 96 would be of some use. But not for a wedding. Cases where I would argue for 96 would involve sounds with a LOT of high freq and sounds you were going to slow way down. But if your recorder and mics are not really great your not going to get anything up there anyway except noise.

Most people could probably pick out 24 bit VS 16 bit if they really focus on it. I generally record at 48/24 and convert on out put to whatever is needed.

You should probably up sample the music to 48 so your not mixing sample rates. You can probably get away with not, but it might cause problems so why take the chance.
 
Totally makes sense. I'm not familiar with upsampling. Is this something I can do in premiere cs5 or do I need another application?
 
tikigod19 said:
Totally makes sense. I'm not familiar with upsampling. Is this something I can do in premiere cs5 or do I need another application?
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Call it sample rate converting instead. Don't know CS5 but I would be shocked if you couldn't.
 
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Ok will look into that thanks.

What about if I use the 44.1khz 4 track mode, should I keep a 44.1 version of every song I have or could I import the 48khz version without issue into a 44.1khz project?
 
well the batteries let me down so I had to turn on stamina mode half way through the ceremony anyway so I'll now change the 44.1 files to 48k and make sure I do a thorough battery test before the next wedding and not just trust the charger that says they're full!
 
For video work, your project timeline should be 48kHz and either 16 or 24 bit. When sent out to DVD it will be rendered as 48kHz/16bit. Music and other elements that are in the CD standard of 44.1kHz/16bit should be converted to 48kHz when importing. Don't even think of recording your production sound in mp3, no matter what the bit rate. Mp3 is a distribution format, NOT a recording format.
 
As has been said, ideally everything will be 48k in a video workflow... but for wedding sound, and for adding music to the wedding video, you won't have any issues with mixing 44.1k and 48k (or having everything at 44.1k). What you MAY have issues with is the timing drift of the Zoom recorder relative to the video... other Zoom devices are notoriously bad (clocks off by 3-4 ms/minute). Anyone know if this is improved in the H4N?

24bit vs. 16bit IS a big improvement, especially for live events where you may have to boost the sound a lot in post.
 
thanks guys. I hope this drift isnt an issue... pluraleyes is trying to sync my first project from this weekend now.. I shall soon see (if it actually works... but dont get me started on pluraleyes!)

One simple question... XLR mics plugged into H4N set to 48k and then a splitter to headphones and into the GH1. The GH1 also records 48K so why not just use the audio fed into the GH1 instead of the H4N if they're both 48K using the same mics? Does the cable out of the H4N into the Gh1 reduce the quality somewhere?
 
tikigod19 said:
thanks guys. I hope this drift isnt an issue... pluraleyes is trying to sync my first project from this weekend now.. I shall soon see (if it actually works... but dont get me started on pluraleyes!)

One simple question... XLR mics plugged into H4N set to 48k and then a splitter to headphones and into the GH1. The GH1 also records 48K so why not just use the audio fed into the GH1 instead of the H4N if they're both 48K using the same mics? Does the cable out of the H4N into the Gh1 reduce the quality somewhere?
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Not all audio circuits are created equal. And while the GH1 has enough audio for happy shots, it's not a particularly good one for a primary recording.

Using the XLR signals, intended for a balanced input, and 'splitting' to go to both balanced and unbalanced is not a good practice, leading to signal loss.

A 'cheap' hook up would be to use the audio out of the H4n, put that into the GH1. While that is not a particularly good way for your eventual sound recording, it would record what the mic picks
up for your eventual use of Plural Eyes, or 'manual' synching of the audio to the video.
 
Yeah it was always the plan to split the h4n into headphones and the gh1 and use the gh1 track for easy syncing however I just couldn't get my head round why using the h4n audio is better than using the gh1 audio recorded VIA the h4n..?
 
A video camera is a noisy electrical environment, and in general the audio circuitry is, if not an afterthought, not the highest priority of the engineers. When you feed the camera an audio feed, you are then using the camera's preamps and a/d circuitry, which are in general of lesser quality than even a cheap dedicated audio recorder, and subject to picking up all that electrical noise. Further, unless I'm mistaken, the GH1 is recording compressed audio, which is a further degradation of your signal. Even further, I'm not sure about the H4n, but it's likely that there is an extra a/d-d/a conversion in the chain... often the headphone outputs of these devices are set up that way. As a general rule, you want your recorder as high in the signal chain as possible, with as little chance of extra devices and conversions mucking up the signal as possible. The H4n will also record 24 bit, vs. 16 bit for the GH1. So, for all these reasons, the H4n recording is far preferable to the GH1-via-H4n recording.

You DO want to feed the GH1 with the signal from the H4n, for rough audio and as the best guide for syncing the H4n audio.

I must say, the lack of separate line and headphone out on the H4n is a serious limitation for a double-system recorder!
 
thank you very much for your detailed reply, that answers my question perfectly

ullanta said:
I must say, the lack of separate line and headphone out on the H4n is a serious limitation for a double-system recorder!
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is this limitation bypassed if I buy the appropriate 25db pad splitting cable?
 
Asplitting cable of any sort will degrade the signal,and one that pads the signalwill be worse... If anything, a small but decent mixer would be the way to go... or (I'm not sure if this ispossible with the GH1) monitor the audio from the camera.
 
well now i'm totally buggered as i've already paid through the nose for this cable. I've read that this IS the thing to do when using this mic with the GH1.

I plugged it directly into my 60D yesterday and no matter what setting the mic is set to I get a huge amount of hiss whether the mic is switched on or off. I assume this is something about the camera's settings but I've basically rendered it not useable for this camera
 
tikigod19 said:
well now i'm totally buggered as i've already paid through the nose for this cable. I've read that this IS the thing to do when using this mic with the GH1.

I plugged it directly into my 60D yesterday and no matter what setting the mic is set to I get a huge amount of hiss whether the mic is switched on or off. I assume this is something about the camera's settings but I've basically rendered it not useable for this camera
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I have a GH-1, I've also been following some of the 'audio issues' threads in the GH-1 forum. From my 'read' of things audio, is few if anyone has recommended anything but a dual system for sound, and using the GH-1 solely for a reference track...(Unless disaster strikes and one is forced to use the GH-1 audio because the dual system's recording failed big time...).

I've tended to think most people are using the onboard mic for their GH-1 audio source, and not feeding in to the audio input jack. As it is, I don't recall anyone commenting on using a splitter to take one's 'good mic' signal and put it into both the Zoom and the GH-1.
 
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