K 5600 releasing joker2 in 2018.

R

rob norton

Veteran
http://www.k5600.com/k56_newsletter_november_2017/

From an email I received:

"As always, we’ll be at NAB, this year in Booth C7534. We’re rolling out the new Joker2. Ready for delivery right after the show, it’s in 400, 800 & 1600 sizes. The Joker2 design addresses those comments our customers have made and wraps those improvements––from Ballast to Beamer––in an all new skin. See you there!

Classic Jokers are still available––at special prices. If you’re interested, think about ordering now as they’ll soon be gone!"

It looks like they have lenses so it seems like they're opting for output over their joker zooms, which lost some punch. I'm interested to see the changes.
 
Received the same email from them earlier today. Hopefully they've been studying the competition. The original Jokers were(are) cheap junk that would fall apart with anything resembling even moderate field use.
 
Run&Gun said:
Received the same email from them earlier today. Hopefully they've been studying the competition. The original Jokers were(are) cheap junk that would fall apart with anything resembling even moderate field use.
Click to expand...

Originals, as in the ones before the popular 400/800? I've only read a few things, never seen one.
 
rob norton said:
Originals, as in the ones before the popular 400/800? I've only read a few things, never seen one.
Click to expand...

These:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/192705-REG/K5600_K0800JB_Joker_Bug_800_Watt_HMI.html

And
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/271480-REG/K5600_K0400JN_Joker_News_400W_Par_1.html
But the PAR version. I never saw anyone who bought the focusable "newsbeamer" version.

I used to shoot for a guy who had several 400's and one of the guys I used to shoot with on the road bought an 800 for us to use(and as soon as he left, I replaced it with a BronKobold 800). Yes, they were small and light compared to some of the other options, but there was also a reason they were a lot less money, too. They just were not built tough enough for real world field use. And looking at some of the pictures of the new ones, they seem to have taken the same design attitude, they just do not look like they are very robust fixtures. But who knows, maybe with the advancements in materials and design and engineering, they may actually be good/tough, now.
 
Last edited:
I use Jokers all the time, especially the Jo-Leko. Never had a problem, in fact I've found them pretty robust.
They get beat to hell in news vans, and grip trucks. Pretty simple, setup, and I see them everywhere, maybe it's a West Coast thing?
 
I wonder if the jo-leko was an accident? I'm assuming that configuration dramatically increased sales. I'd be interested in a smaller 800w light vs. the Arri m8, which they probably haven't sold many of.

Side note: I can't believe Arri are trying to pass off their 800w unit as a replacement for their own older 1.2 lights. There's a huge place in the market for a small, rugged .8-1.2k hmi.
 
bill totolo said:
I use Jokers all the time, especially the Jo-Leko. Never had a problem, in fact I've found them pretty robust.
They get beat to hell in news vans, and grip trucks. Pretty simple, setup, and I see them everywhere, maybe it's a West Coast thing?
Click to expand...

It very well could be a West Coast thing. I do remember in the early 2000's everyone wanted or had Joker's, and I remember a lot of network news guys had lots of them to light up their live shots, but I think a big part of that was the cost(and size to an extent) vs. Arri, Bron Kobold, etc. I almost got a Joker when I was buying my first HMI. One of the things that I didn't like, that it looks like they have fixed now, was the inability to dim them.
 
Sorry, but that's not been my experience at all. I've been using my Joker 400 and 800 for years without problem.
 
I've had a joker bug double 400 par kit since 2001. They've been rugged performers, only two repairs...both for a ballast and a light head that got knocked over by the producer.
 
I owned a Joker 1200 watt PAR that I bought from my rental house. It was a great light and I used it for years, took good care of it and sold it for double what I paid for it. That said, I saw the interview from NAB for the Joker 2s and I was distinctly unimpressed, it didn't look like they did much to me but new cosmetics but maybe the guy doing the interview didn't ask the right questions? I've been testing some cool new LEDs like the Fiilex Q8 Traveler and while the output isn't the same as the HMIs, yet, they are coming up fast and soon HMIs, at least in the smaller, lower wattage sizes, will be antiques. That's my take. LEDs can do so much more for the money like Bi-color, dimmable, DMX, RGB, etc.
 
puredrifting said:
I owned a Joker 1200 watt PAR that I bought from my rental house. It was a great light and I used it for years, took good care of it and sold it for double what I paid for it. That said, I saw the interview from NAB for the Joker 2s and I was distinctly unimpressed, it didn't look like they did much to me but new cosmetics but maybe the guy doing the interview didn't ask the right questions? I've been testing some cool new LEDs like the Fiilex Q8 Traveler and while the output isn't the same as the HMIs, yet, they are coming up fast and soon HMIs, at least in the smaller, lower wattage sizes, will be antiques. That's my take. LEDs can do so much more for the money like Bi-color, dimmable, DMX, RGB, etc.
Click to expand...

The small HMI "replacement" is definitely an interesting space at the moment. There's no real replacement yet and while there may never be, a light will come out that does enough things smaller HMIs can do and that'll be good enough to become a somewhat standard part of regular packages.

I think it's a little more complicated than your list of LED benefits. Take your classic 575w Fresnel as an example. They go through hell getting in positions to shoot through windows, jammed up between tree branches etc.. So their ability to take an absolute beating, small size, reliability, and greater control when shaping hard light are criteria that ensure their continued use.

However, if an LED comes out that truly competes in output with a 575w HMI, while coming in a fixture that instills confidence, that isn't too large, then it'll really make some waves. I'm interested to know how much RGB/bi-colour contributes to a light's size. Give me a powerful daylight only option if it means the light could be significantly smaller.
 
rob norton said:
The small HMI "replacement" is definitely an interesting space at the moment. There's no real replacement yet and while there may never be, a light will come out that does enough things smaller HMIs can do and that'll be good enough to become a somewhat standard part of regular packages.

I think it's a little more complicated than your list of LED benefits. Take your classic 575w Fresnel as an example. They go through hell getting in positions to shoot through windows, jammed up between tree branches etc.. So their ability to take an absolute beating, small size, reliability, and greater control when shaping hard light are criteria that ensure their continued use.

However, if an LED comes out that truly competes in output with a 575w HMI, while coming in a fixture that instills confidence, that isn't too large, then it'll really make some waves. I'm interested to know how much RGB/bi-colour contributes to a light's size. Give me a powerful daylight only option if it means the light could be significantly smaller.
Click to expand...

Agreed, the Fiilex I spent some time shooting with was a beast, it weighed 23lbs and was physically large. And I totally agree about the ability for the light to take a hit and keep working. The Fiilex I had felt as if it tipped over and hit the ground, it would be game over, it's like a computer with a lightbulb (LED source, actually). Then again, my old Joker 1200 watt HMI PAR felt the same way, the ballast and the head seemed fragile too. I like lights like my Mighty Mole, tips over or is knocked over, replace the bulb possibly, and get on with your work.
 
rob norton said:
The small HMI "replacement" is definitely an interesting space at the moment. There's no real replacement yet and while there may never be, a light will come out that does enough things smaller HMIs can do and that'll be good enough to become a somewhat standard part of regular packages.
However, if an LED comes out that truly competes in output with a 575w HMI, while coming in a fixture that instills confidence, that isn't too large, then it'll really make some waves. I'm interested to know how much RGB/bi-colour contributes to a light's size. Give me a powerful daylight only option if it means the light could be significantly smaller.
Click to expand...

I agree with this...it's the one piece of my kit that I'm lacking... and am trying to find green LED alternative - but it doesn't exist yet. The next light I'd like to try (although I know output won't come close to touching other fixtures) is the Zylight F8 200 daylight. It's much smaller than anything else I've demoed/ tried at this point...hoping a 300 or 400 watt version maybe comes in the future... but of course would likely be bigger / heavier...

puredrifting said:
Agreed, the Fiilex I spent some time shooting with was a beast, it weighed 23lbs and was physically large. And I totally agree about the ability for the light to take a hit and keep working. The Fiilex I had felt as if it tipped over and hit the ground, it would be game over, it's like a computer with a lightbulb (LED source, actually). Then again, my old Joker 1200 watt HMI PAR felt the same way, the ballast and the head seemed fragile too. I like lights like my Mighty Mole, tips over or is knocked over, replace the bulb possibly, and get on with your work.
Click to expand...

yeah, It's a bit of a different world with LED tech - everything does seem to be a computer with a COB or even arrays. Those Moles & even Arri kits that could take a huge beating don't seem to exist in newer tech. But then again, my experiences with tough grips/gaffers has also changed in the last 10 - 15 years as well. Seems to be a kindler, gentler set in terms of handling gear... because it has to be for stuff to survive.
 
I really dislike the LED replacement marketing from lighting manufacturers. It's misleading and it's up to the users to decide whether it's a replacement. Plus you think a gaffer with $100K + invested in HMIs is going to run out and replace their package with unproven LEDs? The thing is, if anyone already owns HMIs, chances are they'll continue to use them because they're invested and their tools will continue to work, despite LED tech improving. If anything, the "HMI replacement" campaign should be targeted at those who don't yet own powerful lights and are considering HMIs vs. LEDs.

Regarding the green debate, what about all the first gen LEDs that also get sent to a landfill? I know halogen bulbs need to be thrown out too, but older LED panels will continue to be thrown away as well. Also, think about the carbon footprint of Chinese factories getting into the LED game. I highly doubt the environment is at the forefront of their production practices! I don't actually know which is more harmful but lets not pretend film LEDs can do no wrong.

I'm highly skeptical of any lights coming to market, particularly during this era of "review culture", where the motives of these hypbeast millennials (who have little experience in the field) are mostly to get more subscribers on a youtube channel.

It must be a real challenge protecting delicate (semi exposed) electronics for rugged field use, which is also why a new standard is yet to emerge.

I have everything I need for a small production, except HMIs, which I hire as needed. In Australia it is next to impossible to find used HMIs because people run their investment into the ground for decades. If I was in the US, I'd definitely pick up a pair of 575w HMIs. Particularly now that lighting talent is often the domain of LEDs, their lower power draw means your traditional lights with higher draws can be used without as much worry.

There are other options too. The punch of the fairly new Arri 750 open face lights, even with full blue gel is not insignificant as a hard light on small shoots - hitting talent as a backlight, throwing something on a plant in the BG etc. - so used tungsten is still a no brainer if you're not at the mercy of producers demanding name brand pieces of gear.
 
Not sure that was all directed toward me - but I agree. If I already owned HMI's - I most likely wouldn't be considering LED for punch. But I don't - so I'm the target market for the HMI vs LED debate. And I've not found good used ones at a decent price (but maybe I've been looking in the wrong places).
And I'm already sorry for using the term "green" - in my post above. I agree with you that there is much sketchy marketing around this term, that doesn't take into account entire production practices or the longevity of the product itself - much less how much carbon is used getting cheaply made products to travel across the world to be sold. And I have two first gen Lowel LED Daylight Primes sitting gathering dust that should be in a landfill. I'd sell them cheaply - if there was anyone who might be interested in them. Pretty sure there is not. So, I've been burned by buying early before - and will definitely remain patient & rent until I'm certain on the next tech will work for me.

I have two Lowel 1k open face DP lights - that can work well with 1/2 or 1/4 CTB. But once I started moving away from hot lights - I feel I can work faster often without them. Especially if there are multiple locations involved where quick tear down & pack up might be required. Of course, I understand not everyone will agree - but for most of my current work - being able to run lights off V batts & move them quickly allows for more productivity.
 
markfpv said:
Not sure that was all directed toward me - but I agree. If I already owned HMI's - I most likely wouldn't be considering LED for punch. But I don't - so I'm the target market for the HMI vs LED debate. And I've not found good used ones at a decent price (but maybe I've been looking in the wrong places).
And I'm already sorry for using the term "green" - in my post above. I agree with you that there is much sketchy marketing around this term, that doesn't take into account entire production practices or the longevity of the product itself - much less how much carbon is used getting cheaply made products to travel across the world to be sold. And I have two first gen Lowel LED Daylight Primes sitting gathering dust that should be in a landfill. I'd sell them cheaply - if there was anyone who might be interested in them. Pretty sure there is not. So, I've been burned by buying early before - and will definitely remain patient & rent until I'm certain on the next tech will work for me.

I have two Lowel 1k open face DP lights - that can work well with 1/2 or 1/4 CTB. But once I started moving away from hot lights - I feel I can work faster often without them. Especially if there are multiple locations involved where quick tear down & pack up might be required. Of course, I understand not everyone will agree - but for most of my current work - being able to run lights off V batts & move them quickly allows for more productivity.
Click to expand...

Haha no, not directed at you Mark, just a general rant for the internet!
 
Run&Gun said:
These:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/192705-REG/K5600_K0800JB_Joker_Bug_800_Watt_HMI.html

And
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/271480-REG/K5600_K0400JN_Joker_News_400W_Par_1.html
But the PAR version. I never saw anyone who bought the focusable "newsbeamer" version.

I used to shoot for a guy who had several 400's and one of the guys I used to shoot with on the road bought an 800 for us to use(and as soon as he left, I replaced it with a BronKobold 800). Yes, they were small and light compared to some of the other options, but there was also a reason they were a lot less money, too. They just were not built tough enough for real world field use. And looking at some of the pictures of the new ones, they seem to have taken the same design attitude, they just do not look like they are very robust fixtures. But who knows, maybe with the advancements in materials and design and engineering, they may actually be good/tough, now.
Click to expand...


Are you saying that Jokers are not built tough for real world field use? Joker HMI's are the industry standard for ENG crews and they are also widely used on feature film productions. Is that not "real world field use"? The knock on the Bron Kobold was that it wasn't built as well as the Jokers, had fewer features ( no "bug" capability ) and it was more bulky- thus the lower price. I've never seen a Bron Kobold HMI being used on a feature film. Bron / Kobold's roots are more in still photography than in cinematography / video production. Bron specialized in units for flash photography. K5600, I believe, was founded by folks working in cinema.

Full disclosure, I own a Joker 400 and a Joker 800. But I have used a Bron Kobold 1200w hmi extensively.

I think you have it backwards. K5600 Jokers are the higher-end, higher quality light with more features. A Broncolor Kobold HMI is what you get if you are too cheap to buy the good stuff. Or if you are a still photographer. Which is the same thing. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top