Jan, look at the impact this thing has made

William_Robinette

Shallow Member
Hey all, I was just doing a spot of thinking tonight about all this new Gh1 business and would love a response from the heavy hitters here (Jan, Barry).

We have seen that Panasonic listens to their customers and responds with products that seem to coincide with just what we are looking for. Heck, I'm not saying this under any impression that I might have had anything more then a distant shout into Panny's ear, but more then a year and a half ago I made this post which to me looks a lot like today's HMC150. They listen, no doubt.

What I want to know now is, what is the possibility of a HMC150 with the front end ripped off and a 4/3" sensor + mount put in its place. Look, we all know the technology and more importantly price point is there. Is Panasonic banking on selling more GH1 cameras the HMC150's? Probably, but I'm willing to pay a premium for two very very important factors that I believe a lot of other people could get behind.


  • AVC-HD of the HMC's calliber
  • The audio section on anything from the DVX up
Look Panasonic, I don't see how you cannot sell the HMC as is right now side by side with something that has a bigger chip in it. If I'm doing docs, event, weddings (which you all seem to push in the advertising of the 150) I want small chips, built in lens, etc. If I'm shooting anything narrative, I WANT CHOICES. I want the super shallow DoF that is available; I am not going to be using auto iris/focus. I don't care about a built in zoom. I have a closet full of lenses that I want to use because they are 20 years old and beautiful.

Right now the GH1 is making people do a lot of workarounds. Watch what you shoot so you don't break the codec, run double system sound, watch the skew (although it seems very good on this camera), deal with pulldown in your NLE, etc.

By the same token, if I want shallow DoF on my 150 I am doing workarounds too. The footage is upside-down in post, I can’t use all of my shutter speeds or apertures because of the HUGE 35mm system I need hanging off the front, I have light loss, I need rods. The list goes on and I think a lot of us are tired of dealing with it.

Your competition is listening. The worst part is that it is all happening fast. That is the key here. Announcing something shipping in a few months at NAB '10 is not going to cut it. You need to get something into the hands of people like, yesterday. We now know that Panasonic has the technology to build a camera with a huge sensor, get it down to 1080p with audio, and put it in a body that is very small, for under $2k. I believe a lot of people would give up the super small and inconspicuous nature of a SLR type camera and use something bigger if it worked right (aforementioned audio, codec, pulldown). But remember, we are now talking about a world of $2,000-5,000 prices and that is as much of a feature as anything else.

I want to know what I am missing, because right now I don't understand why there isn't a camera out there made by Panasonic that fits these requirements. If there is a big piece of the puzzle I don’t see, please fill me in.

Panasonic, you gave us 24p first, solid state professional codecs first, and in both these cases at prices which non professionals could afford. Here is another chance to give us something first; a properly working large sensor camera that does 24p at HD to solid state media and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
 
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I think Panasonic is waiting to see what the competition will do first. D90 and 5Dmark 2 came out and then came the Panasonic GH1. I think they will let someone else bring the first Prosumer larger than 2/3 chip camera. So yes NAB 2010 you should see it. Scarlet is a factor now that we are getting closer to it's release date. Panasonic should wait to see what it will offer.
 
Hey all, I was just doing a spot of thinking tonight about all this new Gh1 business and would love a response from the heavy hitters here (Jan, Barry).

We have seen that Panasonic listens to their customers and responds with products that seem to coincide with just what we are looking for. Heck, I'm not saying this under any impression that I might have had anything more then a distant shout into Panny's ear, but more then a year and a half ago I made this post which to me looks a lot like today's HMC150. They listen, no doubt.

What I want to know now is, what is the possibility of a HMC150 with the front end ripped off and a 4/3" sensor + mount put in its place. Look, we all know the technology and more importantly price point is there. Is Panasonic banking on selling more GH1 cameras the HMC150's? Probably, but I'm willing to pay a premium for two very very important factors that I believe a lot of other people could get behind.


  • AVC-HD of the HMC's calliber
  • The audio section on anything from the DVX up
Look Panasonic, I don't see how you cannot sell the HMC as is right now side by side with something that has a bigger chip in it. If I'm doing docs, event, weddings (which you all seem to push in the advertising of the 150) I want small chips, built in lens, etc. If I'm shooting anything narrative, I WANT CHOICES. I want the super shallow DoF that is available; I am not going to be using auto iris/focus. I don't care about a built in zoom. I have a closet full of lenses that I want to use because they are 20 years old and beautiful.

Right now the GH1 is making people to a lot of workarounds. Watch what you shoot so you don't break the codec, run double system sound, watch the skew (although it seems very good on this camera), deal with pulldown in your NLE, etc.

By the same token, if I want shallow DoF on my 150 I am doing workarounds too. The footage is upside-down in post, I can’t use all of my shutter speeds or apertures because of the HUGE 35mm system I need hanging off the front, I have light loss, I need rods. The list goes on and I think a lot of us are tired of dealing with it.

Your competition is listening. The worst part is that it is all happening fast. That is the key here. Announcing something shipping in a few months at NAB '10 is not going to cut it. You need to get something into the hands of people like, yesterday. We now know that Panasonic has the technology to build a camera with a huge sensor, get it down to 1080p with audio, and put it in a body that is very small, for under $2k. I believe a lot of people would give up the super small and inconspicuous nature of a SLR type camera and use something bigger if it worked right (aforementioned audio, codec, pulldown). But remember, we are now talking about a world of $2,000-5,000 prices and that is as much of a feature as anything else.

I want to know what I am missing, because right now I don't understand why there isn't a camera out there made by Panasonic that fits these requirements. If there is a big piece of the puzzle I don’t see, please fill me in.

Panasonic, you gave us 24p first, solid state professional codecs first, and in both these cases at prices which non professionals could afford. Here is another chance to give us something first; a properly working large sensor camera that does 24p at HD to solid state media and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Very thoughtful, Will and valid. After having had a D90 and now a GH-1-- and although I'm not Jan or Barry-- here's the short list why:

1) Broadcast and Consumer Markets should yield the most returns. Consumers mostly want point and shoot, and they really don't care about making their home videos look like film right now. Broadcast is set in its ways and prefers automated systems because time equals money. We're somewhere in between there as Filmmakers and such. A very small niche that obviously doesn't want to pay much for what we want.

2) The cost of an automatic fixed lens with a wide-enough end would probably be through the roof. If it were to have the same features as an HMC150 or HPX170, I can't even see this camera coming in anywhere below 5,999.99-- that's if you're really damned lucky/fortunate.


Remember, Panasonic's Video and DSLR department are two separate entities, although I think that Barry and Jan can help us get some tweaks to the GH-1.

It just doesn't make sense for Panasonic, a company with a large hand in Broadcast, to build a camera around a niche where there isn't enough in the collective wallet to justify the R&D.

There's no telling what'll happen, though. They could spring one on us unexpectedly.

I personally think a better and more efficient place to put the efforts are directly into the hands of the DSLR department. Once the tweaks are up, you spend a little extra money to get sound and you still end up spending less than you would on an HPX170 setup.

Just my thoughts, man. The sentiment is valid, and you can't deny the effect that it's having right now.
 
Scarlet IS this camera. And since RED doesn't have an upper line to protect, when it comes out I believe it will be a game changer, as the RED ONE was.
 
It just doesn't make sense for Panasonic, a company with a large hand in Broadcast, to build a camera around a niche where there isn't enough in the collective wallet to justify the R&D.

I would and did agree with you about 6 months ago. Now with two products out that do what I think a large percentage of us are looking for (although not in the same piece) that problem has changed. I am not looking for redesigned camera here. I am not an engineer, business person, or fabricator so understand the viewpoint I am coming from, however, take the guts of the HMC150, and the taking power (mount + sensor) from the GH1 and slap 'em together. This isn't two companies, this is two departments who need to get together to dominate this market.


I personally think a better and more efficient place to put the efforts are directly into the hands of the DSLR department. Once the tweaks are up, you spend a little extra money to get sound and you still end up spending less than you would on an HPX170 setup.

Although not a perfect solution, I understand this is most likely where we will get the most headway and am all for attacking this front as well :happy:

mcgeedigital said:
Scarlet IS this camera. And since RED doesn't have an upper line to protect, when it comes out I believe it will be a game changer, as the RED ONE was.

When Scarlet is out, you will be correct. I have no doubts it will be, but as to when it seems is still up in the air.
 
Yeah I agree, the Scarlet is the camera you are talking about. And it's getting people hyped up not just by price but because it fills that void the others don't care too much about.

You have valid points but this is just like a lot of people wanting 5D2 features in their Canon video cameras.

I'm not 100% sold on Red but their offer at their prices makes you wonder what its going to do to all these sub 10k cameras.
 
After seeing what they are doing with the GH1 I say the technology is there to implement a 4/3 system on a new generation HMC150 at virtually no price change. But it would probably hurt sales of the upper end cameras. They also can actually implement it on the next generation of the HPX300 with the same price point and really commit hara-kiri. Let's see where they go. They know Red is going to bring a lot of pressure, and if Scarlet turns out as promised there will be a good battle.
 
That's just not true at all.

The HPX300's sensor size makes it easy to use just about ANY existing lens for Shoulder Mount format cameras. By making that sensor larger you cripple the camera SEVERELY. So you have to create glass that sees a larger sensor size than 2/3" lenses.

That COSTS.

And in no way would Scarlet or a Hybrid camera cripple Panasonic's Broadcast sales. Again, the need for these fixed lens cameras and existing technology is greater than this tiny little indie filmmaker market.

There is little to NO money for Panasonic, Sony and Canon here. And it doesn't make sense from a corporation's standpoint to really invest in a LARGER camera like this without proper lensing in place.

Remember, if you stack a lens that doesn't cover the frame size then you're going to record black edges, a total waste of sensor space.

MAYBE there's a way to only use 2/3" of that sensor, but that's defeating the ENTIRE point, right?

It makes COMPLETE sense to put video in Still cameras because you're selling a still camera, and no matter what it's going to sell to a mass majority type consumer.

If you want a fully professional cinema tool at next to nothing, Scarlet is your only hope.

That is until the VDSLRs get better at their video implementations.

I could be totally wrong, though. Maybe there's money in the couple thousand filmmakers that only want to spend more than 3K for the perfect cinema acquisition tool?
 
But wouldn't the same lens system they are using with the GH1 work with an HPX300 4/3? I would think it would. And wouldn't an adapter make all the lenses in the world work with such set up? I don't see a reason why the front end of both cameras wouldn't work the same.
 
Sure, the F4 14-140 could work with this, it'll also take a re-design of the entire housing so that it had the ability to be controlled through its zoom range by a switch on the camera body. Without it, the mass appeal goes from ninety percent to about five.

So sure, the Current Vario lens designed for video specific application would certainly be done, but at what price?

And without the redesign I highly doubt it's economically feasible for any corporation. RED, sure, Pana? I dunno, I guess I'm not Jan but if I were a multi-million dollar organization such as thenI surely wouldn't even consider it unless that lens was applied to the application or the consumer base on a mass scale demanded these little tid bits that we hold sacred.
 
Yes, yes, and yes. However, does Panasonic want to lose the indie film crowd, though small it apparently is, to RED Digital Cinema? That is exactly what is going to happen as soon as Scarlet comes out. Not too soon after that, Scarlet will also end up on big-budget movie sets as well. So the question actually extends to JVC, Canon, Panasonic, and Sony. Are they going to be just broadcast? Film? Or can they muster up the courage and market backbone to actually make something that will be able to compete?

Granted, many will opt for their 1080P offerings, but for how long? Can you honestly say that you would rather film your first feature on a 1080P VDSLR (ie. GH1) when you could film it on a 3K+ full professional cinema quality camera for about the same price?
 
Yes, yes, and yes. However, does Panasonic want to lose the indie film crowd, though small it apparently is, to RED Digital Cinema? That is exactly what is going to happen as soon as Scarlet comes out. Not too soon after that, Scarlet will also end up on big-budget movie sets as well. So the question actually extends to JVC, Canon, Panasonic, and Sony. Are they going to be just broadcast? Film? Or can they muster up the courage and market backbone to actually make something that will be able to compete?

Granted, many will opt for their 1080P offerings, but for how long? Can you honestly say that you would rather film your first feature on a 1080P VDSLR (ie. GH1) when you could film it on a 3K+ full professional cinema quality camera for about the same price?

I'm shooting my feature on a RED ONE, because it's here now, not in 2012. I don't count on Scarlet being anything more than an idea for another pair of years.

And even when it comes out, I doubt I'll be able to justify the 7K+ expense any longer.

At the moment, my HPX170 + Letus Ultimate gets more on a rental than 70 percent of the RED's out there I bet. And the other 30 percent are rental houses with established customers.

In fact, I know where I can get a RED ONE with Cooke S4's and every single thing you need to shoot for 1500.00 a day. When Scarlet comes out I'll be surprised if you can get anything more than 300/day with EVERYTHING as a private owner.

Sorry, I'm no longer interested in an ROI like that. Not when it'll only take a year or two for Panasonic or Canon to get it right.

3K means a hill of beans. I always just wanted a clean 1080 or 2k, interchangeable lenses and a robust compression scheme. The rest is trivial jargon that won't matter much for the typical feature film.

Does Panasonic want to keep a stake in a market where people think they should get it all for under 3K? I dunno. That's Panasonic Broadcast and Video divisions decision.
 
However, does Panasonic want to lose the indie film crowd, though small it apparently is, to RED Digital Cinema?

How many DVX100s, HVXs and such has Panasonic sold thru the years? This market is not that small. In addition, if there were higher level cameras such an HPX300 with all its current features and a big sensor like the 4/3 and its DOF, it would be a no brainer for high profile pros in the business to use it in big productions. The same with a 4/3 HMC150.
 
Do you honestly think that most of the DVx100's and HVX200's were sold to people who were looking for shallow depth of field or even 24P?

wasn't oneof the first HVX's sold to Tom Cruise? He wanted it to shoot his kids soccer games?

Come on, man. Gotta step out of the bubble.
 
Do you honestly think that most of the DVx100's and HVX200's were sold to people who were looking for shallow depth of field or even 24P?

Thats a very good question. They were mainly sold to people on their ability to make its footage achieve a "film look". Then a few demanded that it needed shallow DOF, because we are never satisfied with what comes out, no matter how good it is. Now the HMC150 and 4/3s could achieve the "film look", shallow DOF and more at a price that wouldn't make Tom Cruise the only one able to afford it. For a more robust camera there could be a HPX300 with 4/3s. And a lot of people would be ecstatic.
 
You serious, man? You REALLY think most of the DVx100's sold were to people who wanted the "Film look" add on?

Well, I'mma go back to the GH-1 forum.
 
By "Film look" I'm guessing 24p, low-light and better colorimetry in the case of the dvx100's; this being for the indy filmmaker.
 
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