I've got a date with the Cion...
- Thread starter hotchkiss
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combatentropy
Veteran
If you see Jon Thorn, tell him he did a great job. As I understand he was the chief designer. The body is very well thought out.
Okay, except the up-facing headphone jack. Ask them about that and the other jacks that face up when it rains.
The footage looks marvelous, but I have a few questions about it:
1. ISO.
- How high does it go, and how bad does it look at 400, 800, and above? Trying to get a feel for what's practical for most work. I'm not like those who shout, "Ha! I saw a grain!" I'm quite tolerant of grain and like it a bit. I'm more interested in what ISO would be obnoxious to the average non-technical viewer. I understand this is a judgment call.
- Did they have the same trouble with fixed pattern noise that Blackmagic did?
2. Dynamic range. The sensor maker says that the standard dynamic range is 10 stops, but with special high-dynamic-range modes (there are three) it can go all the way to 15.
- What are the side effects of each mode?
- Which mode did AJA choose, and why?
- Why did they choose just to stretch it to 12 stops?
- Is this the same tactic that Blackmagic uses?
- Can you test to see if it really is 12?
3. Image artifacts. Are there any other image oddities to work around, like white discs or black discs when pointed at the sun, or anything?
Okay, except the up-facing headphone jack. Ask them about that and the other jacks that face up when it rains.
The footage looks marvelous, but I have a few questions about it:
1. ISO.
- How high does it go, and how bad does it look at 400, 800, and above? Trying to get a feel for what's practical for most work. I'm not like those who shout, "Ha! I saw a grain!" I'm quite tolerant of grain and like it a bit. I'm more interested in what ISO would be obnoxious to the average non-technical viewer. I understand this is a judgment call.
- Did they have the same trouble with fixed pattern noise that Blackmagic did?
2. Dynamic range. The sensor maker says that the standard dynamic range is 10 stops, but with special high-dynamic-range modes (there are three) it can go all the way to 15.
- What are the side effects of each mode?
- Which mode did AJA choose, and why?
- Why did they choose just to stretch it to 12 stops?
- Is this the same tactic that Blackmagic uses?
- Can you test to see if it really is 12?
3. Image artifacts. Are there any other image oddities to work around, like white discs or black discs when pointed at the sun, or anything?
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hscully
Veteran
Great! Have fun. I have a question.. with the new 3rd party mounts, specifically Nikon for me, did that require a back focus adjustment. How'd that go?
I don't mind that the native ISO is around 400 but I'm also interested in how high they get it to go. I don't do a lot of shoots where I don't light but I am interested in how they're doing with that. I'm also interested in what menu items are available for camera settings, and if they have presets you can assign for things like detail, gamma, color level, hue, etc. Anything else on what control is given inside the camera - any plans for log or other such gammas?
I'm also interested in how progress is being made with AJA Raw, and what, if any recording solutions or partnerships may be in the works.
I don't mind that the native ISO is around 400 but I'm also interested in how high they get it to go. I don't do a lot of shoots where I don't light but I am interested in how they're doing with that. I'm also interested in what menu items are available for camera settings, and if they have presets you can assign for things like detail, gamma, color level, hue, etc. Anything else on what control is given inside the camera - any plans for log or other such gammas?
I'm also interested in how progress is being made with AJA Raw, and what, if any recording solutions or partnerships may be in the works.
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Just got back.
Wow. Hubba Hubba, the camera is a thing of beauty. It is an elegant example of industrial design.
Tripod mount- It can use a tripod plate on the front portion of the camera, as seen in most released photos of the camera. Most importantly, it can mount to a Sony type VCT-14 plate utilizing both the front and rear connection points of the plate. In other words the rear end of the camera will not just be hanging in the air, as seen in so many photos.
Internal ND- Not happening. The camera is already in production.
Release date- Somewhere between now and the end of the year. The cameras release is being delayed due to some last minute tweaks to the firmware as requested by an unnamed European client. They are adding features- yea. The rep said that the release may be as soon as a month from now, or as late as years end.
Price- $8995.00
Media- 256GB- $600.00, 512GB $1,200.00
Accessorizing/ components- The camera is sold as the body and handle only (6lb. weight) . All other bits are optional and additional- including 15mm rod mounts. It's still sold as a PL mount only, but Wooden Camera and MTF are making additional lens mounts.
Misc thought- As mentioned, it is such a beautiful camera- sleek, streamlined and compact. I wish there were more connection points for all of the cables that will inevitably be running on the camera- HDMI, LANC and audio. It's nothing that zip ties, velco patches and the like couldn't resolve, however McGyver-esque it may be. It's a small quibble.
This camera should also spur right angle cables and cable lock mechanisms. Because of the streamlined nature of the camera, there is not a lot of protection for cables protruding from the camera. This might not be a problem for studio shoots, and those with AC's and agency interns with stylish facial hair on set... but for the fast run and gun shoots, the cables may be more subject to damage. Hopefully, it's not the issue I perceive it to be- but it's something to be aware of.
Interestingly enough, the dealer was also showing the Black Magic Ursa right next to the Cion. For whatever reason, it was attracting quite a bit more attention from attendees.
Photos-
View attachment 91746View attachment 91747View attachment 91748View attachment 91749View attachment 91750
Wow. Hubba Hubba, the camera is a thing of beauty. It is an elegant example of industrial design.
Tripod mount- It can use a tripod plate on the front portion of the camera, as seen in most released photos of the camera. Most importantly, it can mount to a Sony type VCT-14 plate utilizing both the front and rear connection points of the plate. In other words the rear end of the camera will not just be hanging in the air, as seen in so many photos.
Internal ND- Not happening. The camera is already in production.
Release date- Somewhere between now and the end of the year. The cameras release is being delayed due to some last minute tweaks to the firmware as requested by an unnamed European client. They are adding features- yea. The rep said that the release may be as soon as a month from now, or as late as years end.
Price- $8995.00
Media- 256GB- $600.00, 512GB $1,200.00
Accessorizing/ components- The camera is sold as the body and handle only (6lb. weight) . All other bits are optional and additional- including 15mm rod mounts. It's still sold as a PL mount only, but Wooden Camera and MTF are making additional lens mounts.
Misc thought- As mentioned, it is such a beautiful camera- sleek, streamlined and compact. I wish there were more connection points for all of the cables that will inevitably be running on the camera- HDMI, LANC and audio. It's nothing that zip ties, velco patches and the like couldn't resolve, however McGyver-esque it may be. It's a small quibble.
This camera should also spur right angle cables and cable lock mechanisms. Because of the streamlined nature of the camera, there is not a lot of protection for cables protruding from the camera. This might not be a problem for studio shoots, and those with AC's and agency interns with stylish facial hair on set... but for the fast run and gun shoots, the cables may be more subject to damage. Hopefully, it's not the issue I perceive it to be- but it's something to be aware of.
Interestingly enough, the dealer was also showing the Black Magic Ursa right next to the Cion. For whatever reason, it was attracting quite a bit more attention from attendees.
Photos-
View attachment 91746View attachment 91747View attachment 91748View attachment 91749View attachment 91750
hscully,
Sorry, didn't see your post before I went in. I can't answer the back focus question. I didn't get into the menu, the menu was "locked down". If i remeber correctly, the AJA raw has been released to developers. The rep mentioned that one company is already implementing the codec. It is open source and available to industry players.
I wish the base ISO was a lot lower. I'm in Phoenix, we have an abundance of sunshine. An ISO of 200 would have been much better. ISO 100 would have been ideal. Time to get out the 1.2 ND's.... ;-0
Sorry, didn't see your post before I went in. I can't answer the back focus question. I didn't get into the menu, the menu was "locked down". If i remeber correctly, the AJA raw has been released to developers. The rep mentioned that one company is already implementing the codec. It is open source and available to industry players.
I wish the base ISO was a lot lower. I'm in Phoenix, we have an abundance of sunshine. An ISO of 200 would have been much better. ISO 100 would have been ideal. Time to get out the 1.2 ND's.... ;-0
combatentropy,
Sorry, I didn't address any of those questions. However, given that the menu was locked down and that the firmware/software is still being revised, tweaked etc.., I suspect that the rep would not offer much. I'm going to wait for the "testers" to get their hands on it and go to town before I come to any conclusions.
He did reaffirm 12 stops of DR.
Sorry, I didn't address any of those questions. However, given that the menu was locked down and that the firmware/software is still being revised, tweaked etc.., I suspect that the rep would not offer much. I'm going to wait for the "testers" to get their hands on it and go to town before I come to any conclusions.
He did reaffirm 12 stops of DR.
hscully
Veteran
Cool, thanks for sharing what you found. Did you see any additional footage? They brought it to AbleCine and showed some stuff shot at a car show that was what got me going on this camera. I also like what I'm seeing on their latest teaser with the models... you know... not the models but... well you know 
I was wondering about the experience with the back focus because it'd be nice to rent some good PL glass for projects that can take it and use my Duclos ZFs somewhat interchangably. Not on the same day but for different projects. So if the back focus was not needed it would just make that easier and more ready.
I think the NDs are a given. I've got a matte box and a couple of 4 X 4s and will be getting more or better than I have... I'd like to get the white water ones. Frankly, I'd be happy at a native ISO at around 400. Last I heard they had it at 320. I don't think you'll have any trouble going lower. I'm kind of locked in with cameras rated at 800 but 400 is just one stop so that's all fine. I'll take it with the global shutter.
Anyway, can't wait to see more on the CION
I was wondering about the experience with the back focus because it'd be nice to rent some good PL glass for projects that can take it and use my Duclos ZFs somewhat interchangably. Not on the same day but for different projects. So if the back focus was not needed it would just make that easier and more ready.
I think the NDs are a given. I've got a matte box and a couple of 4 X 4s and will be getting more or better than I have... I'd like to get the white water ones. Frankly, I'd be happy at a native ISO at around 400. Last I heard they had it at 320. I don't think you'll have any trouble going lower. I'm kind of locked in with cameras rated at 800 but 400 is just one stop so that's all fine. I'll take it with the global shutter.
Anyway, can't wait to see more on the CION
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No ND's are a big problem for them. The other is where the shoulder mount is located. There is no way on earth that it would balance (for example) in that photo. I dont understand the thinking there. I also don't see how it is going to remotely compete with the Sony FS7.
hscully
Veteran
I don't know if they are really in direct competition. I think they don't necessarily appeal to the same shooters, price parity notwithstanding. We'll have to wait and see but I think the IQ, from what I've seen so far is better on the CION, or perhaps just more to my taste. The CION is internal 12 bit and full color 4444 ProRes internally, true 4K. That's a pretty rich negative there. The FS7 UHD only until some future paid upgrade. I think for event shooting and run and gun high frame rates at 422, the FS7 has some advantages but I think the CION, with all flavors of ProRes and a solid PL mount will provides a better production camera platform.
Regarding the weight distribution it looks to me as though you've got a lot more camera aft on the CION than the PS7. Both are an improvement to Frankenrigs with pretty much all the weight in your hands.
And as soon as we can get our hands on either the better for both groups!
Regarding the weight distribution it looks to me as though you've got a lot more camera aft on the CION than the PS7. Both are an improvement to Frankenrigs with pretty much all the weight in your hands.
And as soon as we can get our hands on either the better for both groups!
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Just run a really, really large battery. ;-O
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No footage was shown, just the live model. She was a model model... ;-)
Me too -absolutely. This camera is a sure contender, financial decisions aside. Although I hope Panasonc re-enters this market segment with a AF200 or whatever. They are missing it by ignoring the $5K -$10K big sensor market.
Me too -absolutely. This camera is a sure contender, financial decisions aside. Although I hope Panasonc re-enters this market segment with a AF200 or whatever. They are missing it by ignoring the $5K -$10K big sensor market.
combatentropy
Veteran
Well, that's a positive.
Grug
Veteran
I don't know if they are really in direct competition. I think they don't necessarily appeal to the same shooters, price parity notwithstanding. We'll have to wait and see but I think the IQ, from what I've seen so far is better on the CION, or perhaps just more to my taste. The CION is internal 12 bit and full color 4444 ProRes internally, true 4K. That's a pretty rich negative there. The FS7 UHD only until some future paid upgrade. I think for event shooting and run and gun high frame rates at 422, the FS7 has some advantages but I think the CION, with all flavors of ProRes and a solid PL mount will provides a better production camera platform.
Regarding the weight distribution it looks to me as though you've got a lot more camera aft on the CION than the PS7. Both are an improvement to Frankenrigs with pretty much all the weight in your hands.
And as soon as we can get our hands on either the better for both groups!
12-bit, 4:4:4, ProRes and Global Shutter are all BIG drawcards for the Cion.
2000ISO, Internal NDs and 14-stops of DR are all BIG drawcards for the FS7.
Puts them pretty evenly matched in my mind - just skewing in different directions.
Only the F7 skews.
