I am just curious because basically every article I read speaks of how your movie will never make money and how it is pretty much a labor of love. Just getting the movie made is not, in my opinion, good enough. After all, you can't pay the landlord with your own personal satisfaction. And when I say indie I mean with a budget of under 20k.
Is there honestly any money in making indie films?
- Thread starter Blake NY
- Start date
craigbowman
Veteran
+1. I have zero interest in getting a project made for cheap. Projects I do must generate a profit, especially my own projects. How could I hope to attract the capital investment necessary?
I have ten narrative features and one feature documentary in various stages of development and not one of them is in the micro or zero budget category. Most of the people you seem to meet in the indie community these days seem to have lost touch with business. When I got my first Red One (#214) folks who knew I wasn't about to spend a cent out of my own pocket, didn't seem to understand how could I get a fully loaded system and also get hundreds of thousands in support gear along with it? It was like the practice of lining up projects and getting in the deposits on those projects to get the financing for everything in place was a lost art or something.
A lot of them, when I inquired about their business plans, didn't have one or had ever done a business plan in their life, let alone put in the time and effort on the proper research for one. Every related community I visited or signed up with, including this one, seemed to be filled with people who's only aspiration was to buy everything they needed on their own nickel, cobble their production together on a wing and a prayer, then hope somehow they'd figure out all the downstream details later.
The only person I've seen from this community that was able to be totally successful along those lines and get everything right to my complete admiration was Faith Granger. I even used one of her production scheduling ideas in a recent feature I DP'ed and it worked brilliantly. There are a handful of bright and talented people I've seen recently but I won't say anything to jinx their projects as I'm sure other long timers here know who I'm referring to.
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Mattykins
Cute Member
The current distribution system is broken. And few people are interested in trying to fix it. Which is why it's hard to make money. There was a panel this weekend where someone said "We're in a time where anything is possible and nothing works". Which is something I've kinda taken to heart. I don't know if distribution can be fixed, I hope so, so do a lot of my friends. Which is why we are trying, because something has to change.
This is why indie economics is wonky. There are too few distribution options, too few 1st window opportunities to maximize your exposure and your money. Many end up on Netflix, and even then, that might change since the studios have a gun to the head of Netflix.
There are lots of people who just make films because they want to be filmmakers. But they don't know what to do after. I'd hazard to say 98% of those projects just sit on harddrives. I made most of my work in film school. I don't know of a single film that was made available online or actively went to festivals (maybe 1 or 2). I don't really understand why. I think people might be afraid of their product after it's made. They want to keep safe their baby. And the best way to do so is on a harddrive. I really don't know.
This is why indie economics is wonky. There are too few distribution options, too few 1st window opportunities to maximize your exposure and your money. Many end up on Netflix, and even then, that might change since the studios have a gun to the head of Netflix.
There are lots of people who just make films because they want to be filmmakers. But they don't know what to do after. I'd hazard to say 98% of those projects just sit on harddrives. I made most of my work in film school. I don't know of a single film that was made available online or actively went to festivals (maybe 1 or 2). I don't really understand why. I think people might be afraid of their product after it's made. They want to keep safe their baby. And the best way to do so is on a harddrive. I really don't know.
What do you think is broken about it?
Seems like there are more distribution options than ever, today. Even more avenues for ultra low cost advertising. Is it more so the lack of ability to advertise effectively? Or having a product that's worthy of the consumer's dollar?
Kind of a loaded post here. The topic asks a question first, then you present a case made by others, then you basically answer the question with your own thoughts.
I suppose it's opinion, 0-50K still seems the same to me: you're still very limited in what you're going to get.
Regardless, it's been show plenty that you can make a profit. It only depends on your plan of action and execution of that. There are people getting projects funded by their audience (kickstarter) above the 50K range right this moment and haven't shot a single second of footage toward it before hand. Anything they make after completing the project and passing out the copies pre-ordered is pure profit.
It's a matter of doing research and answering your own questions and formulating a plan appropriate to what you can confidently execute at your budget.
Mattykins
Cute Member
How many true indies can you name that have gotten a wide release and been easily obtained by the public? Either theatrical or VOD without a major distributer? Of those, how many filmmakers saw a direct profit?
The indie distribution success stories are few and far between. Yeah, can you have a VOD player on your site? Sure, but are you getting the traffic? Can you have your film on indieflix? Yeah - but even their CEO says that rental numbers per title are pretty low. The catalogue is getting hits, but not individual titles. Can you get your film on Netflix or iTunes? Yeah, but are you getting the traffic? Are you getting people to directly purchase your content?
Just releasing a film doesn't mean you get money, other people are collecting a lot of the revenue. Thousands and thousands of films are made yearly. But only a very small handfull of them gets into the hands of the public. Hearing someone say that indie distribution is thriving was the last thing I expected to hear. But hey, to each his own.
I understand what you're saying, but I've also heard it as much as I've heard the "yes you can" pitches.
The catch is that this one operates under the impression that there are enough good indie/no-budget projects that are worthy of the sort of distribution you're talking about. Thousands and thousands are made every year, maybe twenty are worth paying attention to? Is that too optimistic a number?
The sad fact is that the quality isn't there. I think Web Series are a great indicator: just file through the quality and content there and you'll have your answer. Most of the people doing webseries are the ones that can't fund features, but feel they have the ability to do so if they can just show people their work is good enough.
Who's paying for that content??? I know I'm not.
Mattykins
Cute Member
There are dozens of amazing festival pictures that never get a distribution deal. Plenty of films that people want to see that can't be seen. 20 worthy films? That's not saying much for all of the production teams doing awesome work around the world.
Are there webseries that suck? Absolutely. I've seen and been directed to many of them. I've seen god awful films. I've stopped watching countless trailers because some people really don't know what they are doing. But there are plenty of people that do make decent and great content. You just don't get to see it. Which is probably why you think there are less than 20 good indies produced per year.
If great content can't be seen, or if people can't make money distributing good content, then I call that a broken model.
And if people can't get their content seen, then why do we do what we do? Why do we make films if we can't get the chance to move people? And as OP said, why do we make films if we have no chance of seeing a return?
Are there webseries that suck? Absolutely. I've seen and been directed to many of them. I've seen god awful films. I've stopped watching countless trailers because some people really don't know what they are doing. But there are plenty of people that do make decent and great content. You just don't get to see it. Which is probably why you think there are less than 20 good indies produced per year.
If great content can't be seen, or if people can't make money distributing good content, then I call that a broken model.
And if people can't get their content seen, then why do we do what we do? Why do we make films if we can't get the chance to move people? And as OP said, why do we make films if we have no chance of seeing a return?
There's no actual study of such numbers, and it's just a guesstimation (possibly exaggerated) from what I've seen over the years in regards to "indie" or "micro budget" so you're right, it's pretty much a POV or Opinion on my end. You'd have to define worthy to begin with, and I see that as something someone would actively pay to watch. There's a barometer for that.
With respect to your POV, we'll probably disagree (which is just fine) on the subject in general being that I personally think there isn't enough good content, if good is defined as something that someone would pay to consume, in the micro/nano-budget sector to justify the idea that anything is broken to me. Someone with good material only has to look to web-specific boutiques or even putting it on a video hub and trying to monetize their product through Pay Per View Partnerships (YouTube,Vimeo, etc) to prove that it's good. And, even then, there's a flaw to that logic because no one is actually paying to watch it, you're getting paid (pennies) by the hub itself.
There are people out there with decent material getting this done. A number of our own members, at that. IMO if you only have 10-20K and you want to bypass this entire conversation then the first thing I'd go for is a niche that doesn't consume their content through P2P sharing etc. See: Kyle Prohaska and Faith Granger for immediate and/or close-to-home examples. Different topic, though.
One other question: where are you (Mattykins) gaining access to this content? If there isn't an outlet for it, I mean. My (more than likely crippled) opinion comes from watching a lot of WithoutaBox uploads and happening upon shorts and features online, or through the word of mouth of friends... a lot of which is negative word of mouth.
Can you point us to where you're seeing so much of it outside of Film Festivals?
Can you point us to where you're seeing so much of it outside of Film Festivals?
Mattykins
Cute Member
We, our stealth startup, have been tracking festival films, many award winning, that have yet to pick up distribution (or easily accessible distribution) We've sent people to Tribeca to talk to filmmakers about distribution, and to see what's out there. Our tracking usually comes back with nothing after the festival releases. Even films that were really good. Now, even though I wasn't there, I trust my team. So there is content out there. Most of it gets stuck in the festival circuit. I'd hazard to say that there aren't many great films outside of the circuit. If they were great, they'd be in the circuit.
But even then, many films just need good word of mouth, they don't have to be masterpieces. I'd actually be shocked if a nano-budget film made it big. It's happened, but not often, usually because, yes - it wasn't good.
And Kholi, I never said I'm seeing this outside of the fest circuit.
And youtube isn't designed to consume full feature content. It's not the venue. It's a good place for calling card stuff, but to make a profit? Not the place unless you have a consistent 1mil views.
Per your "actively pay to watch" comment, I think that's an industry wide issue, not just an indie issue. A lot of people don't want to pay for anything. They have to be retrained to value content. It's an issue even for studios, which is why all the majors are laying people off left and right that work in home entertainment.
But even then, many films just need good word of mouth, they don't have to be masterpieces. I'd actually be shocked if a nano-budget film made it big. It's happened, but not often, usually because, yes - it wasn't good.
And Kholi, I never said I'm seeing this outside of the fest circuit.
And youtube isn't designed to consume full feature content. It's not the venue. It's a good place for calling card stuff, but to make a profit? Not the place unless you have a consistent 1mil views.
Per your "actively pay to watch" comment, I think that's an industry wide issue, not just an indie issue. A lot of people don't want to pay for anything. They have to be retrained to value content. It's an issue even for studios, which is why all the majors are laying people off left and right that work in home entertainment.
I see alot of both positive and negative opinions about film making here and other boards.. I am a believer that if you have a good product, regardless of budge size, it has every oppurtunity to succeed. But again, that all lays in the hands of the how you get the film to the public, how big of a buzz you create. how much time you are willing to put into things like this.
I am working on a few differant projects right now, mainly because I love everything about film making, learning something new everyday. but.... I dont have a ton of money tied up in my equipment either. So these guys buying expensive equipment and shooting have to have some expectations of a return. you don't spend a couple hundred thousand on a hobby. ok well i dont. and someone somewhere is making $$$.. There are thousands of festivals every year and I can't imagine any reasonable minded person continuing to submit to these or hold these festivals if there were just "no hope" as I read ALOT on these boards..
Again. i do believe there IS hope. but.... that depends on the quality and marketing..... and no that doesnt "always" have to come with a huge budget.. I have seen countless great films that were done on a super small budget... and on the flip side. ive seen hundreds of terrible almost non watchable films that were done on big budgets... I wish everyone here that has their films ready to go the best of luck. and to the rest that are holding on to theirs.. get them out there.. you might just have a great movie that we all would love to see...
Terry
I am working on a few differant projects right now, mainly because I love everything about film making, learning something new everyday. but.... I dont have a ton of money tied up in my equipment either. So these guys buying expensive equipment and shooting have to have some expectations of a return. you don't spend a couple hundred thousand on a hobby. ok well i dont. and someone somewhere is making $$$.. There are thousands of festivals every year and I can't imagine any reasonable minded person continuing to submit to these or hold these festivals if there were just "no hope" as I read ALOT on these boards..
Again. i do believe there IS hope. but.... that depends on the quality and marketing..... and no that doesnt "always" have to come with a huge budget.. I have seen countless great films that were done on a super small budget... and on the flip side. ive seen hundreds of terrible almost non watchable films that were done on big budgets... I wish everyone here that has their films ready to go the best of luck. and to the rest that are holding on to theirs.. get them out there.. you might just have a great movie that we all would love to see...
Terry
Wilbur Eddings
Well-known member
Gonna keep my usually long winded reply short this time 
1) The actual making of a full length feature is more about tenacity and balls than anything else.
2) The selling of a feature is about WHO you know! Festivals, cold calls, forums, etc. - all to find you the contact/contacts that will get your product on the right desk.
The trash getting snapped up for large amounts of cash (Millions) is mostly determined by buyers for TV stations etc. If you have a contact in one of those areas and have a half decent ability to make movies then your bum is in the butter!
Making a profit off your movie is 20% good movie and 80% Networking/Marketing skills.
0.02c
1) The actual making of a full length feature is more about tenacity and balls than anything else.
2) The selling of a feature is about WHO you know! Festivals, cold calls, forums, etc. - all to find you the contact/contacts that will get your product on the right desk.
The trash getting snapped up for large amounts of cash (Millions) is mostly determined by buyers for TV stations etc. If you have a contact in one of those areas and have a half decent ability to make movies then your bum is in the butter!
Making a profit off your movie is 20% good movie and 80% Networking/Marketing skills.
0.02c
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Azmyth
Veteran
I think things are good and bad for the indie film maker right now. I'm one of those who made a movie for nothing. I didn't really have any intentions on making a profit from it, but I've made so many connections now through it I have a feeling we make the budget back just from local showings and sales. Like has been said, its all about networking and who you know. I made some friends with some other film makers (through netflix oddly enough) who in turn put me in contact with the distributors putting out their movies, and voila.. I now have possible deals on the table that will make me a profit.
Part of that though, is because I made sure I made a film that was in a niche that has a large fanbase. Your gonna have trouble in general if your not making something thats generally popular. art films, and weird documentaries or just "weird" films in general just don't have a market big enough to get alot of attention. Horror does really well, Action too, Comedy and romance fall into the last spots.. because these movies are harder to sell when they don't have a big name or two in them.
Part of that though, is because I made sure I made a film that was in a niche that has a large fanbase. Your gonna have trouble in general if your not making something thats generally popular. art films, and weird documentaries or just "weird" films in general just don't have a market big enough to get alot of attention. Horror does really well, Action too, Comedy and romance fall into the last spots.. because these movies are harder to sell when they don't have a big name or two in them.
And the bigger question is making a profit versus making a living. If the original budget covered salary and such, that's one thing. Usually these films are made for cost of good only. So my last film has a dollar spend of $8K. This is no where near the actual cost of the film if I and others involved were actually getting their usual rate. So "profit" on this movie would start when I see $8001 show up from somewhere. If I look at my costs of mortgage, kids going to college, food, electricity and water, car, insurance, and everything else, I am not making a living at these films. These are passion projects.
Now they can certainly lead to other opportunities, but that is a halo effect and is another discussion.
Michael
Now they can certainly lead to other opportunities, but that is a halo effect and is another discussion.
Michael
Martay
Veteran
I'll weigh in with general terms.
The short answer is that you absolutely can make money doing indie films.
The amount you can make is in question due to the nature of the distribution business at the moment.
However, just making a movie, as tough as that is to do, isn't nearly enough in order to just break even (unless you've absolutely spent nothing on making it which I think is fairly hard to do if you are properly delivering a film).
Much to my surprise, there still are Advances to be gotten, but nobody is going to overpay for your movie any more (unless you're extremely lucky and make a huge splash).
So, all the festival darlings that aren't getting deals are likely cases where the deals were not satisfactory to the Producers of those films. Reason? They're not getting the $ they put into making the movie...but that's how it is these days.
Make cheaper movies, and manage your expectations.
It may take a while before you can make a decent living from the movies but you can make money from them.
Even my prior features have made money...but I can't quit my day job as yet.
-Martin
The short answer is that you absolutely can make money doing indie films.
The amount you can make is in question due to the nature of the distribution business at the moment.
However, just making a movie, as tough as that is to do, isn't nearly enough in order to just break even (unless you've absolutely spent nothing on making it which I think is fairly hard to do if you are properly delivering a film).
Much to my surprise, there still are Advances to be gotten, but nobody is going to overpay for your movie any more (unless you're extremely lucky and make a huge splash).
So, all the festival darlings that aren't getting deals are likely cases where the deals were not satisfactory to the Producers of those films. Reason? They're not getting the $ they put into making the movie...but that's how it is these days.
Make cheaper movies, and manage your expectations.
It may take a while before you can make a decent living from the movies but you can make money from them.
Even my prior features have made money...but I can't quit my day job as yet.
-Martin
Paul Hudson
Vacuum Tube Member
Your odds are better at Vegas but there is a chance at success. Start with a very good script, precise preproduction, a strong cast and production design, then finish with topnotch
editing, color grading and post audio and your chances increase significantly but if your in it for the money your odds are still better playing lotto.
editing, color grading and post audio and your chances increase significantly but if your in it for the money your odds are still better playing lotto.
Azmyth
Veteran
I think too, you can add in that alot of people aren't making movies that other people want to see, they are making movies THEY want to make. Its all well and good that your a huge fan of championship ping pong, but if you don't have a market of people who like movies about championship ping pong.. it won't matter if your movie cost 100k or 5.00 to make.. they won't buy into it. I have a friend who made a fan film, and has gotten TONS of exposure off of it, and tv spots.. and he doesn't even own the rights to the material.. but thats exactly the reason he got somewhere with it.. there was a fan base for it.
I remember there was a guy way back when trying to make a film about mary magdalene and something biblical, and he was trying to raise money by posting really badly made images (looked like MS paint) and a video of two women talking on a beach, that wasn't very cinematic and looked to have nothing to do with anything.. and he was not understanding why noone seemed to care, and noone wanted to jump at the chance to fund it.
I have a friend who is on his 4th feature film, ALL 4 have been sold and he's been able to make each film due to the last film's success. They are all low budget horror fare, but there's a BIG audience for that unlike the previous guy I mentioned. How many people out there would really want to see that?
I'm not griping about not being able to make a living with this yet, I'm a small fish in a big pond. I'll be happy if I just supplement my income enough to be able to keep making more films until I either eventually am able to, or I die happy knowing I spend my life doing what I love.
My movie cost me 10k out of pocket, and the rest was donated. If we had to pay for everything we used, it would have easily been 100k or more. Faith is the only film maker I know who's had success making a movie with a limited fan base and being extremely successful at it. The broader the group you can hit, the easier the sell IMO unless you have something extremely interesting that will draw people in.
I remember there was a guy way back when trying to make a film about mary magdalene and something biblical, and he was trying to raise money by posting really badly made images (looked like MS paint) and a video of two women talking on a beach, that wasn't very cinematic and looked to have nothing to do with anything.. and he was not understanding why noone seemed to care, and noone wanted to jump at the chance to fund it.
I have a friend who is on his 4th feature film, ALL 4 have been sold and he's been able to make each film due to the last film's success. They are all low budget horror fare, but there's a BIG audience for that unlike the previous guy I mentioned. How many people out there would really want to see that?
I'm not griping about not being able to make a living with this yet, I'm a small fish in a big pond. I'll be happy if I just supplement my income enough to be able to keep making more films until I either eventually am able to, or I die happy knowing I spend my life doing what I love.
My movie cost me 10k out of pocket, and the rest was donated. If we had to pay for everything we used, it would have easily been 100k or more. Faith is the only film maker I know who's had success making a movie with a limited fan base and being extremely successful at it. The broader the group you can hit, the easier the sell IMO unless you have something extremely interesting that will draw people in.
arniepix
Well-known member
Levi Strauss made money in the 1849 gold rush by making pants for miners, not by panning for gold. As a colorist who's worked on several indie features & docs, I suspect that I've made more money from my fee than most of them have made back for their owners.
If you want to make money in indie films, sell a product or service to indie film makers.
If you want to make money in indie films, sell a product or service to indie film makers.