is there a music discussion forum?

F

Fahad

Veteran
Hi,

the audio section is a very useful resource for technical aspects of filmmaking.

i was wondering if there's a forum (or thread) that discussed the art in relation to film. For example, the pros and cons of using it, how much music is too much, and how to be creative with it.

i searched but couldn't find one.

thanks


ps: maybe in the directing forum?
 
Same question was asked a few weeks ago. There is not such a forum currently here, but many thought it would be a good idea to add one. However apparently not enough interest to actually do it.

OTOH, there IS a forum called "Music - Creation | Composition" over on CreativeCOW, however.
 
thanks for the tip, richard.

would you happen to know online resources related to the same?

i read wikipedia's article "film score", but it just states what it is.

but it led me to this article: "Musivisual Language".

it states that:
Musivisual Language is a special language of music placed in film and from film, understood not only from structural point of view, rhythm and sound-material, but also from the relationships and meaning semiotics in relation to the close interaction with the image and plot.
—Román, 2008: 84
Click to expand...

this is exactly what i'm looking for. but this is a very technical (and new) term. is there a more layman or traditional term for this?

thank you
 
Hey Fahad,

So you're looking for general theory on the use of music in film? I mean, there's of course no "answers" on pros and cons, how much to use, etc., because it is an art, not a science. And the answer as to how to be truly creative with it would probably be to not worry about what anyone else has written about it. :)

One basic bit of theory they teach us film composers in film composer school is to think hard about what function the music serves. Let's see if I can remember the basic categories... There's "physical" which can be what we call "mickey mousing," like in a cartoon where music obviously and loudly syncs with everything that happens on screen, or it can be as simple as ethnic or period music identifying the location or time period of the scene. There's "technical" which is just about getting us from one place to another in the film, like providing a transition between scenes. Then arguably the most significant function, "psychological" where the music might help us understand what a character's feeling, or maybe it's foreshadowing danger that the character doesn't yet see.

So when deciding on music, it can help to look at your film and think about what it needs based on those three categories. Examples... The basic technical level: "Is this cut awkward? Would a bit of music help?" The physical: "This scene is in the Andes. Do we want pan pipe music to associate with the area, or keep the music more neutral to just support the action?" Emotional... "Do I want music to tell us she is sad, or would that be overkill? Maybe she's sad but the music should tell us something happy is about to happen."

Does that start to get to what you're asking about?
 
thanks a lot randin!

this is exactly the type of thing i'm looking for. i'm not looking to compose, per se. i'm not a musician, but i would like to know how to manipulate it.

still researching, but this helps a lot.

thanks again.


edit: can you recommend any online resources for this type of thing?
 
edit: can you recommend any online resources for this type of thing?
Click to expand...

I would say the best resource there is would be watching movies, developing a good ear and talking to lots of composers. A really good composer has a pretty good sense of where music should go and shouldn't, though as a director it's important to also have your own ideas. Knowing how scenes should play dynamically is more or less instinctual, and while I say watch movies and talk to composers, there is a certain element there that some people either just get, or don't get. I guess you can compare it to when directors just know what to do with the camera at every given moment to really enhance what's going on. Then you get the ones that just put fancy cuts together 'cause they read about them in a book. I think this is where directors have to make a descision - do I feel comfortable making these choices or do I want to find somebody that has the ear for it and can guide me through the process? Depends how you like to work.

One problem I see a lot with student films and indie films etc is the director just looks up a bunch of stuff on film scoring, watches some movies, and decides where the music should go and how it should be without even having a discussion with the composer. I mentioned in the other thread that asking for a film score isn't like asking for takeout. You'd think that would be obvious but it's really not to so many filmmakers.

I guess what I'm trying to say is the biggest resource you have is discussion with your composer. A good film composer writes music, but that's only a small part of the job. A lot of student filmmakers go out looking for the person who can write the most impressive cues and demos...but are pretty surprised when the score to their film doesn't turn out quite like they wanted. A good film composer is not just someone who writes good music that happens to be in movies.

Aproach is everything. A composer will be so much more willing to experiment and change things up if he/she feels like you have a clear vision. One common theme I hear in interviews with a lot of Hollywood composers is they're scared shi*less of showing their cues to directors. Because it's like, you've spent all this time writing the cue, maybe a full days work for a 1.5-2 minute cue, maybe longer (which is about right for Hollywood standards), then the director might say "cool, let's do this though...". If the director knows what they want though - and is willing to work to it, and appreciates how much the music means to the film, or lack of music in certain scenes - then it's good. Getting the cue exactly right the first time isn't expected all the time and composers have to expect that. But as I say, the more the director knows what they want, the easier the process will be.

Maybe if a bit more discussion on these issues surfaces, we'll be able to have a film music sub forum here. It's definitely good to see some more threads on music, and people looking to expand their knowledge on the score itself and how it works within a film.

I agree it's hard to find good places online to talk about things like film scoring. Threads and discussion gallore on the best lens or camera, but sound and music gets a lot less attention than it should. Especially considering how much of a make or break it can be to a film!

Almost forgot - "On the track" is a book aimed at film composers, but it's filled with loads of interviews with top Hollywood composers and information on playing out scenes, making choices, etc. Definitely worth reading. There is a lot of music score in there, but it's worth it just for the conversation side.

Sometimes DVD's have a version of the film where it isolates the score without any sound or dialogue - that can be an interesting experiment. Also some DVD's have good BTS with the composer & director, and how they work together. Can't think specifics at the moment but we could always start making a list of things like that here!

Finally, film composer interviews. Lots of them online, podcasts etc. Very helpful!
 
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Just be warned that "On the Track" is pretty dense! But if you just picked certain chapters you'd indeed learn a lot. It's pricey as a big fat textbook, but see if you can get it at the library. There are a few copies in my local city library.

I also found "On the Score" there which is a great book of interviews with composers. It's from the late 90's, so it's kind of funny to read things like an interview with Thomas Newman before American Beauty! I found that book better than most composer interviews, because it's buy a composer who teaches film music so it has more depth than most of what I've heard online, which is more sorta fanboy interviewers.

But my favorite film composer text is cheap, short, and easy to read - "The Emerging Film Composer" by Richard Bellis. It's again targeted towards composers, but when I'm making more money at this, I'll be buying a copy for every director I meet. I think by reading an experienced composer's tips to younger composers about how to work well in the film business, you'll become much better prepared to work with a composer yourself. You'll get an inside view of complaints composers make about filmmakers, so you can avoid being that guy they complain about. :)
 
thanks for the tips, guys.

this all makes sense. i think i have a good theoretical framework to start with.

watching movies for inspiration is definitely one of my resources. speaking of which, i have a few movies i'd like to comment about and would like to hear what you guys think:


Darren Aronofsky and Clint Mansell

Pi
The Fountain
Requiem for a Dream

i just watched Pi and The Fountain again recently. i think that clint mansell and darren aronofsky make an excellent film duo. it's kind of hard to believe that these films were made/composed by the same people. the music in Pi has a techno/edgy feel to it, while The Fountain's music is as epic as you can get.

not to mention their work on Requiem for a Dream. legalities aside, to have your music ripped off in different productions all over the world is, in my opinion, the greatest form of flattery.


Coen Brothers and Carter Burwell

Blood Simple
No Country for Old Men

i just watched Blood Simple for the first time a few days ago (i know, i know). and i have to say, the music in this is very captivating.

but what i don't get is No Country for Old Men. i thought that was an excellent movie, but i distinctly remember that it didn't have music in it. i thought the lack of music was one of its strong points (i.e. they CHOSE not have music in it). however, the wikipedia article states "Music By Carter Burwell", did i miss something in the movie?


Of course i could go on and on, but what do you guys think?
 
Fahad said:
i just watched Pi and The Fountain again recently. i think that clint mansell and darren aronofsky make an excellent film duo. it's kind of hard to believe that these films were made/composed by the same people. the music in Pi has a techno/edgy feel to it, while The Fountain's music is as epic as you can get.
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Well, that's one of the great things about being a film composer, in my book. The chance to do all different kinds of music as appropriate. I love it. There's music I've done for films that I never would have made otherwise, and actually wouldn't even listen to if someone else made it! But I love it. That's the very beginning of the scoring process - what is THE music for this film? What is THE sound of this film? That's why I can't stand the use of library/royalty free music. It's such an insult to the film to think that something somebody cranked out without the particular film in mind is fine to slap in there. Original music is part of the process that makes your film the work of art it is!

And that's one of the things about hiring a film composer that's hard. I liked something said at the BMI panel at Sundance this year - "the music for your film hasn't been written yet." It sorta harkens back to something Chris said above, when he said don't just look for a composer with IMPRESSIVE music. This adds, don't just look for someone who happens to have something kinda close to what you're thinking of. Look for someone with a good professional record and an ability to support a story with whatever music is required. Cuz the music for your film hasn't been written yet!

Coen Brothers and Carter Burwell

Blood Simple
No Country for Old Men
Click to expand...

Funny thing, I recently had the exact same thoughts! I watched Blood Simple - the only Coens film I hadn't seen - for the first time a month or so ago, and was thinking about the process of development over the years of that filmmaking/composer team. And I had the same thought looking at the credits on No Country. I recently picked up the DVD (yay local Blockbuster going out of business sale!) and have been meaning to watch it. I'll let you know what I think.
 
Coen Brothers and Carter Burwell

Blood Simple
No Country for Old Men

i just watched Blood Simple for the first time a few days ago (i know, i know). and i have to say, the music in this is very captivating.

but what i don't get is No Country for Old Men. i thought that was an excellent movie, but i distinctly remember that it didn't have music in it. i thought the lack of music was one of its strong points (i.e. they CHOSE not have music in it). however, the wikipedia article states "Music By Carter Burwell", did i miss something in the movie?
Click to expand...

No Country had no "score", it did have music, but it was all practical.

The other thing to remember is that the composed music is a balancing act with the "sound'. A good sound track plays almost like scored music. In a perfect world the composer and the sound supervisor and or designer would work closely with the director early on. Unfortunately that rarely happens. Low budget films often make the mistake of over scoring the film. An audience doesn't like to be beaten over the head every minute telling then how they should feel about every moment. And as a replacement for a decent sound track music generally sucks. The music only seq in a big film is pretty rare. Even the biggest "score moments" generally have a fair amount of "sound" to anchor the audience IN the story.

Which is why the sound folks and the composer ought to be working together. The two big questions are, "What does the audience WANT to hear now?", and "What does the audience NEED to hear now?". Some times it's score, some times it's the FX (I'm assuming they always want and need to hear the dialog), and sometimes it's both.

Lets take a big Knights in armor battle sequence.
Prep for the battle Knights getting on horses, sharpening swords etc. Probably all sound. WE need and want to be involved in this prep.
THey ride out. Probably more of the same but music may start to creep in.

We see the massed army at a distance moving toward battle. Perfect score moment. We can't hear them anyway and we want to get geared up for the battle.

The armies approach each other. Generally a big score moment that builds (and has sound start to come in more) till. THe battle explodes. At this point a lot of films will cheap out and put heavy score over big parts of the battle. This is almost always a mistake. It pulls the audience out of the world on the screen and we WANT to hear and be apart of the action. So as long as the camera is in the thick of it I think it should be all or at least 90% FX. If you pull out to a god view then you going back in to score land.

Aftermath. Often effective to start with just the quiet aftermath sounds but the right score can also work really well here.

Low budget films will usually slather music over the whole thing and often music that wasn't composed specifically for that scene so the beats aren't even on the money. They do it because even a picture editor can drop in some music the director has found but it takes a sound editor and a library and a bunch of Foley and time to really cover the battle. But it's not nearly as effective and often outright distracting to just slather music on.
 
excellent points, noiz2.

i definitely agree about over using music to drive emotion. as anything in a film, if it brings unneeded attention to itself, it takes the audience out of the story.

randin, i agree about the tasteless use of royalty-free music. i think it is overdone in a bad way. although i am a fan of people like Kevin MacLeod at incompetech.com (who offers some of his work for free, in certain scenarios), but i think if you're going to use pre-made music, you'd have to structure your film around the particular piece you intend to use.

i think the next Coen Bros. movie i want to see is miller's crossing (also scored by carter burwell). i've heard good things about this movie.
 
Noiz2 has some good points, but of course there's no one answer for every movie. In one film, maybe it's indeed right for there to be no score as the knights prepare. In another movie, maybe the director wants to drive in the point that these knights are going off to certain doom, so we might have some slow-mo shots of the preparation with a subtle emotional score. Many films have done the thing where you get dramatic score building up to the fight, then the score cuts out with the first blow of the battle, to drive in the harsh reality of the battle with nothing but the sound of clanging swords, grunting warriors, etc. Maybe you need some dramatic buildup score during the preparation before they face the deadly bunny rabbit who's going to maul all the knights. ;) You never know! Every group of knights has its own story.

And yeah, Miller's Crossing is great. I recently rewatched Barton Fink, too. Fantastic.
 
randin,

I agree, I was just giving one example. There are I'm sure fully scored battle scenes that work great. Usually though that is when the battle is something we as an audience are not supposed to feel apart of but to look at in a bigger context. And if it were me I probably wouldn't do the first blow cut thing just because it has been done too often. But that really depends on the film, the director, the genre and my ability to come up with something that works better. The last is fairly critical since things are usually done over and over because they work well. So finding something that works as well or better can be a real challenge. And no mater how cliché something is, if it's what the audience wants and needs at that point, it works.

With the Coen's the other person to keep in mind is Skip Lievsay. He has been the sound supervisor/ designer from the beginning.
 
Of course we could also name a few directors who don't care what the audience wants or needs. :)

You know, I was thinking of more avant garde filmmakers, but now that I think about it, I'd put George Lucas on that list as well.

Oh, and I meant to say, yes, it'd be a wonderful world if composers and sound designers were working more closely rather than ending up adversaries at the mix!
 
randin said:
Of course we could also name a few directors who don't care what the audience wants or needs. :)

You know, I was thinking of more avant garde filmmakers, but now that I think about it, I'd put George Lucas on that list as well.

Oh, and I meant to say, yes, it'd be a wonderful world if composers and sound designers were working more closely rather than ending up adversaries at the mix!
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I think that you will probably be able to make a fairly good correlation between box office and audience needs being met. Though mass marketing and prequel/sequel anticipation can warp the numbers. So the first three Starwars I think fit the bill the second three miss badly. Cameron, who can be criticized on many levels, has a fine understanding of what the audience wants/ needs.

One can always make the "art for art's sake" argument. But in a mass market art form if nobody sees your film... Who cares? It may have been cathartic for you but again who cares? a BIG part of performing arts is the impact on the audience. You can't have an impact if nobody sees it. I spent 20+ years in theatre and there is even more, if you can believe it, folks who will tell you it doesn't matter if there is an audience. And as someone who has been there I can tell you it is BS. If you don't care about your audience then your just masturbating in public.
That's not to say it doesn't happen fairly often, but they are not the people you go back to see again, unless you have issues.
I stay away from the "this is art and that isn't" argument. You can call it all art for all I care but some "art" I'm not interested in experiencing.
But as been said before "opinions are like a*&holes, everyone has one".

The big split is that some "art school" filmmakers thing of film like it was a painting. I put film in with theatre. It is a team sport and it's a performing art that is largely meaningless with out an audience. As such it's closer to a high end restaurant than a fine arts gallery. People don't buy your film to own the only copy and hang it in their hall. They go to watch it with others and have a shared experience. If as a group they don't connect with the film then it just doesn't work. The "art" is what happens with the audience. If you feel it's all about you then I think your in the wrong art form.
 
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