I have a client who wants to shoot a interview indoors in front of some large windows. They want the windows properly exposed as it's revealing a large field with significance to the subject matter. There are no rental houses near where I live (Syracuse, NY) so I'm hoping I can do a lensrental.com order for a Aputure COB 300D II (3500lux at 10') with a soft box and arm it out close to the subject. On a sunny day, would be enough output to expose for the windows? (shooting on the c300mk3).
Is the COB 300D powerful enough to expose for windows in interview shot?
- Thread starter Lkorver
- Start date
scotchtape
Active member
Depends on several factors:
How close is the light and what size softbox?
Are the windows tinted?
If the windows are not tinted and you want to use a nice big softbox then the answer is not really if you want it to look "good".
You can get about 10.5-11.5 EV using a softbox w/ 300D II. Sunny day is anywhere from 14-15 EV.
If you use a 24 inch softbox very very close to the face you can probably get 12.5EV, so if you over expose the background by 1 stop it might be tolerable.
Depending on the window tint you might get even closer.
Also depending on what is outside of the window and the angle of the sun you might be able to get away with it... (for example if it's a darker background)
If your client is willing to be blinded by the reflector / hard light then that is also a possibility, but then you still need a light for the fill...
(I'm pretty sure this will cause eye damage...)
Also if you're shooting flat against the window, good luck with the reflection of the lights...
I think you need around 1,000W LED power in a softbox around 1M to get decent exposure against a daylight background.
Alternatively you can do the shoot earlier/later and avoid the bright sun
How close is the light and what size softbox?
Are the windows tinted?
If the windows are not tinted and you want to use a nice big softbox then the answer is not really if you want it to look "good".
You can get about 10.5-11.5 EV using a softbox w/ 300D II. Sunny day is anywhere from 14-15 EV.
If you use a 24 inch softbox very very close to the face you can probably get 12.5EV, so if you over expose the background by 1 stop it might be tolerable.
Depending on the window tint you might get even closer.
Also depending on what is outside of the window and the angle of the sun you might be able to get away with it... (for example if it's a darker background)
If your client is willing to be blinded by the reflector / hard light then that is also a possibility, but then you still need a light for the fill...
(I'm pretty sure this will cause eye damage...)
Also if you're shooting flat against the window, good luck with the reflection of the lights...
I think you need around 1,000W LED power in a softbox around 1M to get decent exposure against a daylight background.
Alternatively you can do the shoot earlier/later and avoid the bright sun
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Then maybe his answer is to rent 2 or 3 COBs.
Here are some frames from a recent shoot with a 330W COB key light in a 60" softbox (I can't remember if there were 1 or 2 layers of diffusion in there, but I think there were 2.) Fill light is a 150w COB in a 24" softbox with 2 layers of diffusion. There are also windows behind camera filling the space. The keylight is about 10' away from the actress.
Sony FS7 shooting in HG4 profile.
Cloudy outside:
Sunny outside:
Here are some frames from a recent shoot with a 330W COB key light in a 60" softbox (I can't remember if there were 1 or 2 layers of diffusion in there, but I think there were 2.) Fill light is a 150w COB in a 24" softbox with 2 layers of diffusion. There are also windows behind camera filling the space. The keylight is about 10' away from the actress.
Sony FS7 shooting in HG4 profile.
Cloudy outside:
Sunny outside:
ozmorphasis
Well-known member
No, it won't be enough, especially if it is sunny outside.
Several options:
Use the 300d, but add ND to the windows.
Use 2-3 300dmk2 fixtures shot through a 4x4 frame or something similar (size dependent on how wide you need your shot to be).
As long as the ND is blurred a bit, it's a very easy solution. If not out of focus, then you need to be really methodical about how meticulously you apply the nd to the window so that it disappears.
Abe's frames above give you some ideas. His highlights are blown on the sunny shot. It's serviceable because it's just a bit of texture in a background that has a lot of other features, but in your case it sounds like the outdoor view is a critical part of your background. In that case, you need to plan for that.
Lastly, Abe, what's that in her hand?
Several options:
Use the 300d, but add ND to the windows.
Use 2-3 300dmk2 fixtures shot through a 4x4 frame or something similar (size dependent on how wide you need your shot to be).
As long as the ND is blurred a bit, it's a very easy solution. If not out of focus, then you need to be really methodical about how meticulously you apply the nd to the window so that it disappears.
Abe's frames above give you some ideas. His highlights are blown on the sunny shot. It's serviceable because it's just a bit of texture in a background that has a lot of other features, but in your case it sounds like the outdoor view is a critical part of your background. In that case, you need to plan for that.
Lastly, Abe, what's that in her hand?
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Yes - my shoot was a case of doing the best I could with what I had. Detail outside the window was not mission-critical and I did not gel the window. I probably wouldn't have had time to anyway.
I probably could have gotten a better result in the highlights by shooting slog3 instead of HG4, but I wanted to deliver something easy to grade since no one talked to me about how it would be graded.
This was a vibrator testimonial. I forget the name of the device. But supposedly the spot (for Adam and Eve) is airing now in the dead of the night on MTV or various channels somewhere.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
And, as mentioned, if I had used the COB open-faced with a reflector or using a fresnel lens attachment, I could have delivered a lot more (and harder) light on the actress.
Here's a talking head shot a few years back on a Canon 7D in Neutral profile. The key light is a 40W 1x1' LED panel with no diffusion about 2-3' away from the talent. I believe it caused her to squint a little. There is still some detail burned out outside the window, but it was a sunny day and it was a bright building, so it's not a terrible performance for such a low-powered light, especially on a darker skin tone. Just an example.
Here's a talking head shot a few years back on a Canon 7D in Neutral profile. The key light is a 40W 1x1' LED panel with no diffusion about 2-3' away from the talent. I believe it caused her to squint a little. There is still some detail burned out outside the window, but it was a sunny day and it was a bright building, so it's not a terrible performance for such a low-powered light, especially on a darker skin tone. Just an example.
rob norton
Veteran
Can you gel the windows? Check the "Customer Images" on this rosco 0.9 ND roll, you're doing exactly the same thing as that person - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/90630-REG/Rosco_102302114825_E_Colour_211_9_Neutral.html
I think a 300d ii through softbox on top of talent at max brightness is a little much. You're better off removing light rather than poorly attempting to overpower the sun.
Plus you'll have the roll for future projects.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Rolls are not so simple.
They can..
make noise
flap about with reflections
require a lot of coverage for a wide
eat time on set
They can..
make noise
flap about with reflections
require a lot of coverage for a wide
eat time on set
rob norton
Veteran
Are the alternatives more simple e.g. a diffused/bounced m40 on a generator?
Plus I'm not sure it matters if their application is slightly annoying, it's just a way of handling the tool.
Of course some careful scheduling may be the most simple but I'm assuming that's not an option.
Just don't break out the nets!
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Yep there is nothing simple. I think it is most important never to over promise and under deliver.
The client must be made to understand that it is a tricky shot.
Usually tricky shots can be avoided by shooting a sequence and competenyly cutting it together.
If tricky shots are needed then force the client to pay for the resources in this case most likely a 1.2HMI and time to set it.
With a roll one might do three panes then the director wants the shot widened up a bit and pane four comes into shot, and everything stops while you sort that - It make you look like a muppet whereas the directors lack of clarity of shot size is the true muppetry.
The client must be made to understand that it is a tricky shot.
Usually tricky shots can be avoided by shooting a sequence and competenyly cutting it together.
If tricky shots are needed then force the client to pay for the resources in this case most likely a 1.2HMI and time to set it.
With a roll one might do three panes then the director wants the shot widened up a bit and pane four comes into shot, and everything stops while you sort that - It make you look like a muppet whereas the directors lack of clarity of shot size is the true muppetry.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Ooh I know -
The easiest thing is to position the talent so they don't overlap with the window in frame.
Then shoot a plate at a lower exposure to capture the window detail after you shoot the interview. (Easiest to do if it's a locked-off shot, but also possible to composite with camera movement via tracking.)
Then just mask in the shot of properly exposed windows on top of the blown out windows.
It's almost free, very easy, and you have total control of the relative exposure. Quick to do on set but only works if you can properly stage talent.
The easiest thing is to position the talent so they don't overlap with the window in frame.
Then shoot a plate at a lower exposure to capture the window detail after you shoot the interview. (Easiest to do if it's a locked-off shot, but also possible to composite with camera movement via tracking.)
Then just mask in the shot of properly exposed windows on top of the blown out windows.
It's almost free, very easy, and you have total control of the relative exposure. Quick to do on set but only works if you can properly stage talent.
Imamacuser
Veteran
What's wrong with using nets on the outside of the window? I know wind could create problems, and it might not be feasible to put a net on anything above the 1st story. Are there other concerns?
Scenes like you describe are exactly what you need an incident light meter for. If you know the actual value of the light passing through the window, then you can calculate what you need to balance it with lighting on the subject.
You need two meter readings to start with: A flat disk reading under brightest anticipated daylight conditions taken at the glass surface facing out. Then an ambient interior reading with the dome taken at the talent position facing away from the window toward planned camera position.
The two readings give you the value difference in foot candles and f/stops for a correct middle gray exposure at your preferred ISO setting. From that you can decide how much lighting you need to supplement and make creative exposure decisions on where you place exterior vs interior values in the image.
You need two meter readings to start with: A flat disk reading under brightest anticipated daylight conditions taken at the glass surface facing out. Then an ambient interior reading with the dome taken at the talent position facing away from the window toward planned camera position.
The two readings give you the value difference in foot candles and f/stops for a correct middle gray exposure at your preferred ISO setting. From that you can decide how much lighting you need to supplement and make creative exposure decisions on where you place exterior vs interior values in the image.
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thekreative
Veteran
If you can, this is the best. I've used gels many times and it is a real pain to get them to work right if you want any detail outside. I wish there was a matte nd gel that could hide any ripples and reflections.
ozmorphasis
Well-known member
This brings up an important question. Do you need details of the background in focus? If not, then it's easy to gel and much more practical than going huge with your lighting. If you do need the details in focus, then it's tricky for reasons mentioned.
For out of focus backgrounds, I've become a huge fan of gelling. It's super easy and any wrinkle, tape, etc, is all hidden by the blur.
rob norton
Veteran
Maybe nothing. The background needs to be really out of focus to lose the obvious appearance of the net, which may be somewhere closer to talent than the background.
Depending on the shot, the net would probably work better inside rather than closer to the windows where gels would be. As the shot becomes wider then nets start to leave the conversation entirely (hopefully).
Practical concerns are you need to be careful with them compared to other rags, plus check out the price tag on a 12x12 - http://www.canvasgrip.com/p/B098.html
Re gels, you need to be careful with reflections but wrinkles in the roll are more about either better technique applying them to windows or not having a smooth roll to begin with.
As a stereotype, I think you'll find Gaffers enjoy gelling windows far less than most other tasks for this very reason - you need to be careful and it's fiddly.
Who cares though, this sounds like a great project to work on and it'd be fun to think of ways to solve the problem. If the field has so much significance maybe you could rack focus to it while the subject is speaking! Like a better looking, mini news anchor stand up.
The plate shot idea is great. Except for selfish reasons in this particular case I'd rather attempt to get there in camera.
Imamacuser
Veteran
What about a black scrim like in this Matthew Rosen tutorial?
I've read about people using mesh tarps instead of nets, but you'd have to have super shallow DoF in order for it to work.
I've read about people using mesh tarps instead of nets, but you'd have to have super shallow DoF in order for it to work.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
I've been in this spot many times. Gels are the answer. If you blast the talent with light to try to reach the outdoor levels, they will be squinting
and will be annoyed. D300 MKII isn't going to get you there either unless you luck out with a very cloudy day and even then, you'd probably have
to have the D300 MKII bare to get enough level. You are talking probably in the area of 6-8 stops difference minimum between your indoor and outdoor
shot.
I have gelled windows inside when I had to shoot a CEO on the top floor of a high rise and we obviously couldn't access the windows from outside.
It's tricky with reflections but shallow DOF and separation can help.
I agree with what Morgan wrote, this is a pain in the ass shot. If the client insists, then they pay more and you get enough time to gel.
If you've never done it, hire a grip to do it, it's a specialized job that involves cutting the panes if it's a paned window, soapy water, squeegees, etc.
It's not something most people will do a good job of it they've never done it. I've learned how to do it from some pro grips and it's a thing.
For me, as a producer, these shots are rarely worth the effort. You can't control or light outside unless you have huge resources, whereas you can light and
control an interior BG so I am not that hyped on seeing outside windows unless you can do it right.
and will be annoyed. D300 MKII isn't going to get you there either unless you luck out with a very cloudy day and even then, you'd probably have
to have the D300 MKII bare to get enough level. You are talking probably in the area of 6-8 stops difference minimum between your indoor and outdoor
shot.
I have gelled windows inside when I had to shoot a CEO on the top floor of a high rise and we obviously couldn't access the windows from outside.
It's tricky with reflections but shallow DOF and separation can help.
I agree with what Morgan wrote, this is a pain in the ass shot. If the client insists, then they pay more and you get enough time to gel.
If you've never done it, hire a grip to do it, it's a specialized job that involves cutting the panes if it's a paned window, soapy water, squeegees, etc.
It's not something most people will do a good job of it they've never done it. I've learned how to do it from some pro grips and it's a thing.
For me, as a producer, these shots are rarely worth the effort. You can't control or light outside unless you have huge resources, whereas you can light and
control an interior BG so I am not that hyped on seeing outside windows unless you can do it right.
David W. Jones
Veteran
And then there's always green screening the windows and replacing them with an exterior shot plate.
Most clients think their shot is of upmost importance until you tell them of the time and money involved in achieving it.
Then they are like... Well OK lets just shoot it however.
Most clients think their shot is of upmost importance until you tell them of the time and money involved in achieving it.
Then they are like... Well OK lets just shoot it however.