Is it still worth buying a light meter?

We will not agree - that is not a problem - its a forum to discuss ideas and help the OP make his choice

Everything you say is correct

Personally I have an old nikon D80 and a 24-105 lens on it for - its really useful on set, I have a light meter, that I very rarely use too

S
 
DDirector said:
...there are histograms, waveforms, or whatnot. Should I still invest in one if I want to be a DP? Especially when shooting digital, is it even reuired to have one? Or is there substitute equipment out there?
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I guess to look at it another way; you can use waveform, marker function, histograms in place of a meter to check out your overall exposure and that can definitely be handy - say you are shooting one-man run-and-gun style (even if its a "movie" or suppose to be cinematic) a light meter is almost useless in that situation as there is probably no time for it. Sometimes you have to wing it for sure. But, say even for an interview that's not cinematic where you could care less what your f-stop is set to on your lens. It would still be great to measure your subject, measure one less stop on the fill side, then say one less stop on the background. A light meter makes doing that easier than panning your camera around to read marker.. (Just an example)

I like using a light meter also to establish my ambient light level and work from there. This weekend I did a beach shoot in afternoon with zero clouds and 45 degree overhead sun. I got there and measured f45 - f64 in direct sun, knowing I wanted f5.6 to f8 for my actual shot it was easy to calculate how strong ND I would need and strength diffusion panel to work in that range. How else would I have done that so it was efficient?

I would do the same thing indoors. Measure f1.4 to f2.8 ambient and know that my background by default will get that level of exposure. Then from there say I know I want a dark look so I go 2-4 stops over that and light my subject f5.6-f8 with fill between f2.8-f4 depending on look you want. How are you going to do that on waveform monitor or histogram? Waste of time.

By the way here are some frame grabs from my outdoor weekend shoot on beach I mentioned. Again I metered ambient, determined what f-stop I wanted for the look I wanted, computed what ND, overhead diffusion and level of fill was needed. All that goes into getting a good image on screen. I later did use the histogram to see what it was showing overall (although don't trust it usually) and would put the marker over face to get between 40-50 IRE in the gamma mode I was using for this shoot.









 
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Most of my video work now is low budget TV commercials shot on location.
I find it helpful to do a walkthrough before I pull any gear from the truck, with my light meter and color temp meter.
 
To those of you who say, well I use my waveform/false color/etc. Do you bring those on the pre-scout? Do you use them before you have the gaffers bring in the stuff from the truck? I can stick my light meter in a dark corner of a room, or on the surface of a magazine on top of the nightstand and know EXACTLY what my footcandles are there. How do you get that on a waveform monitor? False color is a lot more helpful.

As for using a DSLR for a production tool, I use that as well. My T2i is pressed into use for exactly those things. As well as production stills. But even when I am shooting professional stills, I still use a lightmeter because I can stick it in my pocket, and it tells me everything I need to know. There is enough crap on my sets without me having to worry about dragging a monitor along, or setting up a waveform, monitor for the scene, or even putting another camera on the set that a PA has to hold (and hopefully not drop).

Just my experience...
 
When we scout a location, I know my camera and lights good enough, that I can roughly say what I need and where I want it.

The rest, I dial in with the false color on the camera monitor.

Frank
 
Someone please show me how ro use a histogram/waveform/DSLR as an incident meter, They are all functioning as reflective meters. An incident meter measures what light is reaching the subject. A reflective meter is measuring what light is bouncing off the bubject to reach the camera, The both have their purposes, but when I adjust lighting, 90% of the time it is with an incident meter. Because it tells me what the light is doing, not how everything else reacts to that. I'm not adjusting everything else, I'm adjusting the light.

I have reflective meters (spot and wide angle), incident meters and a color temperature meter. The one that gets by far the most se is the incident meter.

BTW, this is great timing. Tomorrow (Tuesday) evening, I am helping present a free Tech Tuesday event in our New York Learning Center, "How To Use A Lightmeter."

http://training.abelcine.com/tech-tuesday-how-to-read-a-light-meter/
 
Mitch to answer that you can use an Expodisc or meter off a grey card to gain an incident read, or approximation of the same

There are various ways of reading a DSLR - histo, the onboard meter etc etc

The bottom line is that Frank and I seem to be making a living from digital images not using a light meter..

I use my histogram on my cameras (most video people dont know how to read these) while AFAIK Frank uses a WFM

Bottom line.. the best tool is the mark one human eyeball .. or whatever tool works for the shooter
 
Mitch, reflected light as seen on your waveform monitor will still directly relate to the amount of light taken by an incident light meter reading. Once you've determined the working exposure of your camera using a gray card then you would know what f-stop is needed to expose for middle gray by taking an incident light meter reading.

This is exactly what Andy Shipsides did in his Sony F3 test where he determined that to get middle gray at 50 IRE on the waveform monitor he needed f5.6 at 800 ISO on his meter. http://blog.abelcine.com/2011/03/11/abelcine-tests-the-sony-f3-iso-rating/

Once you know this you can easily use a waveform monitor, camera marker function, or even zebra stripes to determine exposure levels of your subject or other parts of the frame. If 50 IRE is f5.6 then getting 30 IRE on your background is 2 stops lower, or f2.8. Light some skin at 60 IRE and you are at f8, etc.. etc..

I think this is what DDirector was getting at, what's the point of a light meter when technically other tools can give you the same information? It's true I use a light meter to measure my ambient light and to help set my ratios, but believe me before I hit record I'm using the tools in camera as well if it has them as a quick check to see where things are at exposure-wise.
 
I like having a mater for scouting locations, especially interiors, giving me a sense of T stop and not having to carry a camera around to see what it's seeing (that works too, but the meter is just more elegant). For shoot days, I'm using the monitor/waveform for lighting... not the meter anymore.
 
I haven't been replying, but I was keeping up with the comments constantly, and now that it died down a bit, I can ask another question.

So, according to everyone's responses and after an hours worth chatter with my teacher who was a DP, I will be buying one.
However, I talked with my teacher and he suggested to pay more for the Cine version.
For when shooting on film, I understand that this will help. But what about shooting digital? - RED, DSLR, or some other digital cameras? Will having the Cine version help?

And if you have any further comments about whether or not to get a lightmeter (considering the future of technology) and/or what lightmeter you suggest, let me know.

Thanks
 
YES! Get the Cine version.

There are a few things in the cine version that you will find helpful. Like a 24fps which usually isn't on the photo ones. Also things like shutter angle are on the cine versions. It really simplfies things when you need to make calculations. On some of the more advanced ones, you can even compensate for filters on the lenses if you like.

VERY helpful to have.


DDirector said:
I haven't been replying, but I was keeping up with the comments constantly, and now that it died down a bit, I can ask another question.

So, according to everyone's responses and after an hours worth chatter with my teacher who was a DP, I will be buying one.
However, I talked with my teacher and he suggested to pay more for the Cine version.
For when shooting on film, I understand that this will help. But what about shooting digital? - RED, DSLR, or some other digital cameras? Will having the Cine version help?

And if you have any further comments about whether or not to get a lightmeter (considering the future of technology) and/or what lightmeter you suggest, let me know.

Thanks
Click to expand...
 
DDirector said:
But what about shooting digital? - RED, DSLR, or some other digital cameras? Will having the Cine version help?

And if you have any further comments about whether or not to get a lightmeter (considering the future of technology) and/or what lightmeter you suggest, let me know.

Thanks
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Since I done have the ability to shoot with 'big name brand pro equipment'... this is just a conjecture... but I will presume that the settings on an ARRI Alexa or similar will be in terms
that current film film cinematographers understand, that is shutter angles, and light measured in footcandles, etc. DSLRs on the other hand are controlled via terms that make sense for still
35mm photographers. I don't think cinematographers used 'EV' much, since this was used to allow for a photographer to quickly calculate what set of f-stop/speed, f-stop ranging from f/64 to 'wide open' for whatever lens, and speeds ranging from seconds to 1000th's of seconds, for a given ISO, to use. Since most movie shooting is (was) at 24 fps @ 180 deg shutter (or slight variations there of), the only 'variable' would be F-stop... or perhaps ISO and processing directions.

Don't know where RED stands on this...
 
My thoughts again about using a meter is more for establishing relativity between light sources. For me it wouldn't matter if I used a light meter that measured foot candles, I can still use it to measure light and light differences.

I'm using an old Sekonic L-508 Cine zoom master, but buy what you can afford today, and tomorrow you can always upgrade. Most equipment like this retains good resale value.
 
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You will find that it is still easier in day to day use to use a cine version.

Star, I am quite familiar with what I can and cannot do with a histogram, waveform, gray card, etc. Andy & I work together on many things, including tonight's seminar on how to use a lightmeter. But I know that you are writing your response in part as an educational point to others readig this thread, as am I.

A reflected meter or waveform, etc. reads what is sent to the camera. It does not know what is actually happening on the set. I work in motion pictures, where things change and the both the frame and objects within it move. I could have a very bright light pointed at a black shirt and next to it a dim light pointed at a white shirt. My reflected meter tells me they're fine in exposure but when the subjects move I am sufddenly drastically overexposing one and underexposing the other. That's incredibly simplistic but it is the essence of why I primarily use an incident meter. That way I see what the light is doing first, then I can see what objects are moving through that light to determine how they will be affected. Using a reflective meter you only see the combination and then need to translate it. That is the essential difference and I prefer to build my light and structure it rather than translate and deconstruct it.
 
You can buy the Sekonic L758 Cine brand new on eBay for $600.

I also bought the Seconic C500 color meter brand new on eBay for $900. Brand new with full international warranty.
 
starcentral said:
My thoughts again about using a meter is more for establishing relativity between light sources. For me it wouldn't matter if I used a light meter that measured foot candles, I can still use it to measure light and light differences.

I'm using an old Sekonic L-508 Cine zoom master, but buy what you can afford today, and tomorrow you can always upgrade. Most equipment like this retains good resale value.
Click to expand...

That is true. But when most lights are spec'd, when there's a photometric data spec at all..., they are spec'd in footcandle/lux values. These do not really 'translate' to shutter speed and f-stop for most people...
initially...

Then there's the issue of Watts to FC/lx... which varies depending on the light production process...

And even if photometric data is available, depending on the angle, focus, etc... the delivered values could be quite different.
 
Mitch - what I said was 100% true if you consider middle grey as your subject and works well as reference point for skin - which is what most people expose for isn't it? Obviously if you're shooting black clothes you have to factor that in.

DDirector - if you don't get a cine version light meter you can always set the shutter to 1/50th which is close enough to measure 24fps 180 degree shutter (or 1/48th shutter speed). Again, do you plan to take a meter read and set your aperture accordingly, or simply just use it to measure your light relativity on a set...

J1Clark - actually I did just that, for my camera I determined that 42 footcandles were needed to expose middle grey at f5.6. So then what I did was make a handly little table of various lights that I own along with their corresponding photometric "performance data specs" so I could calculate approximately how much light I would have at so many feet or meters depending on the light.

For example an ARRI 300w light in spot mode (without diffusion, etc..) has a performance of 16,800. Next you divide that by your distance² (distance in feet) and you end up with how many foot candles you would have at that distance.

So, at 10 feet I can figure out I would have 168 foot candles! (168 = 16,800 ÷ 10² ) This is 2 stops more than 42 footcandles, so from f5.6 I have f11! Isn't math fun?

Here are some online examples of light photometric specs:

ARRI's photometric data:
http://www.arri.de/lighting/americas/location_studio_fresnels/300w_plus_fresnel.html

Kino Diva photometric data:
http://www.kinoflo.com/Lighting Fixtures/Diva-Lite/Photometrics.htm
 
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