Is it even worth making a film these days?

roxics

roxics

Veteran
I directed a feature back in 2004, it was basically my film school. I did a limited self distribution run in a local theater and on DVD. We made our meager budget back from that. But I didn't do anything else with the film because it wasn't great, just a great learning experience. So I don't have any experience with film festivals or distributors. I haven't made a narrative piece in over 11 years now. Just been doing corporate video work in that time. But I'm itching to get back into it. I'll start with a couple shorts but once I'm back up to speed I'd like to do another shoestring budget feature. Most likely all self financed.

That said, I've seen so many people these days talk about how hard it is to sell films and even when you do they're offering you pennies on the dollar. In many cases not even enough to cover the cost of actually making the film.

I'm curious if there is a database out there where indie filmmakers have offered up how much they sold their films for and how much it cost them to make them. What year it was made, what year it was sold, etc. That seems like it would be really handy to get a snapshot of the current industry as it relates to indie filmmakers outside the studio system.

I'd also like to know how things have changed. A lot of threads on this forum seem to be a bit dated. Going back prior to 2010. While good information, I can only guess a lot has changed in six plus years. Netflix and Amazon streaming have really taken off and home video sales seem to be in constant decline. How much have digital downloads replaced that and is that a good route to go?

Assuming you're not the next Kubrick, can you make any money these days shooting films for under $10K? Which is a realisitic self-financed budget for me, equipment aside and crew and actors working for copy and credit.
 
I'm pulling some of this out of my butt, but like trying to make money on any artistic venture, it's all about marketing/finding your audience. I'm terrible at it. Some people aren't. There are people out there that are willing to part with money for an artistic product you offer. Reaching them is the hard part.

As far as finding others who will tell you what they were paid etc., I've heard before sharing that info is a seriously stupid thing to do, as it weakens your (the filmmaker that is) position in the marketplace. For example, if I have some amazing looking film that I made for $20,000 that LOOKS LIKE $200,000, and I tell everyone "I made this for only $20,000", buyers might be try to buy the film for less, or future investors attracted to the quality of the film might be willing to invest less cause, hey, if he made THAT film for $20,000, why not only give that much to make his next one? They don't know that you called in a ton of favors and lost friends etc. to make that $20,000 and nearly died from exhaustion doing it. So, I believe only you and your investors (if applicable) are supposed to know the actual cost/budget.
 
In short, NO.

It's not "worth it" in terms of expecting to recoup any significant portion of the investment.
That almost never happens anymore.
In recent years a decent low-budget Indy film stood a modest chance of breaking even or even making a few dollars, but now with the HUGE glut of films being made, and piracy...sure...it's "Possible"...it's just becoming more and more rare.

For example: I just saw an industry article on piracy cutting into earnings and it was BAD. It's REALLY becoming problematic and pervasive.

http://variety.com/2015/digital/new...american-sniper-takes-biggest-hit-1201437235/
http://blog.mediasilo.com/oscar-films-lose-big-due-to-piracy
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-31535132
http://www.indiewire.com/article/is...e-opening-infographic-has-the-answer-20160120

"Whiplash" was illegally downloaded over TWELVE MILLION TIMES!
Under these conditions it is nearly impossible to actually profit from anything but a VERY successful film - even then you'll still be robbed half blind.

So now films are just like records - we can NEVER earn a fair living off of them unless you're at the very top of the food chain.

While I work on nearly every type of film/video production to some extent, I expect to NEVER in my life work on a decently funded feature for the reasons listed above. It's a near-guaranteed loss.

Not the film makers's fault at all.
Technology has changed. The world has changed. People EXPECT to get their entertainment products for free.
Done.
 
Well, it's like any business. Just making a movie, as difficult as that is, isn't enough to be successful -- if the goal is to make a living making independent movies. It's taken years, but we've just begun to learn how to position a micro-budget movie properly. There are genres that are more viable than others, there are strategies that will elevate your VOD sales tenfold, there are name actors you can afford that automatically trigger a "buy" from retailers like Walmart, etc. After five movies we finally "cracked the nut" of profitability. The real challenge at this level is keeping your budget low enough that you can make enough revenue to keep the movie-making machine moving, to produce more pictures. So the team itself becomes critical as everyone is wearing multiple hats. We liken each person at Sabi to being like a pillar. We know that if any one of us were to falter, the whole thing could collapse. My movie, Down and Dangerous, was made for under $50,000 and I don't know the exact figure but it did well enough to support our company for a year and fund another movie. That, despite it being pirated a couple weeks before our release date back on February 14, 2014. Cable and satellite VOD accounted for 80% of that. iTunes was 18% and the remaining 2% were from Amazon, XBOX, Vudu, Hulu and all the other platforms out there. But getting premiere placement on cable/satellite VOD systems is key, at least for us it was.

As a general rule, any distributor that you haven't heard of before they approach you with an offer is going to be worthless for anything beyond "just getting it out there". We were fortunate enough to be picked up by Gravitas Ventures for domestic VOD who is reputable and has a proven track record. And a year later Paramount looked at our movie, and despite having sold a handful or foreign territories, decided there was still enough "meat on the bone" and released our movie internationally, more or less doubling our revenue.

This is the movie by the way, in case you're wondering if making a movie that sells is within your reach. It is. If our crew of six could do it, anyone could.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/down-and-dangerous/id791920040

 
I know one cat that buys films for 1500ish, sometimes less and sells them off to 3rd world countries. Might bring in 5k a pic. So not a particularly lucrative business model for those filmmakers. Stacey at film specific might be able to give you an idea of what things are selling for, a snapshot of the industry. She does charge but does post some things for free. I've come to the conclusion that for me its folly to spend money making films I'm not comfortable losing.
 
To answer your question, then... no. Documentaries can do decent with a niche market, if a series is good enough it can stand on its own. But, as with any business, you have to accept beforehand that you might not get anything at all. And you have to be okay with that. That's just the nature of risk in business, films included. We wouldn't call it risk, and we wouldn't reward it, otherwise.
 
Zak Forsman said:
Well, it's like any business. Just making a movie, as difficult as that is, isn't enough to be successful -- if the goal is to make a living making independent movies. It's taken years, but we've just begun to learn how to position a micro-budget movie properly. There are genres that are more viable than others, there are strategies that will elevate your VOD sales tenfold, there are name actors you can afford that automatically trigger a "buy" from retailers like Walmart, etc. After five movies we finally "cracked the nut" of profitability. The real challenge at this level is keeping your budget low enough that you can make enough revenue to keep the movie-making machine moving, to produce more pictures. So the team itself becomes critical as everyone is wearing multiple hats. We liken each person at Sabi to being like a pillar. We know that if any one of us were to falter, the whole thing could collapse. My movie, Down and Dangerous, was made for under $50,000 and I don't know the exact figure but it did well enough to support our company for a year and fund another movie. That, despite it being pirated a couple weeks before our release date back on February 14, 2014. Cable and satellite VOD accounted for 80% of that. iTunes was 18% and the remaining 2% were from Amazon, XBOX, Vudu, Hulu and all the other platforms out there. But getting premiere placement on cable/satellite VOD systems is key, at least for us it was.

As a general rule, any distributor that you haven't heard of before they approach you with an offer is going to be worthless for anything beyond "just getting it out there". We were fortunate enough to be picked up by Gravitas Ventures for domestic VOD who is reputable and has a proven track record. And a year later Paramount looked at our movie, and despite having sold a handful or foreign territories, decided there was still enough "meat on the bone" and released our movie internationally, more or less doubling our revenue.

This is the movie by the way, in case you're wondering if making a movie that sells is within your reach. It is. If our crew of six could do it, anyone could.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/down-and-dangerous/id791920040

Click to expand...

Zak, wow! After reading through your kickstarter history it seems that you knew early on that you were targeting cable vod. I'm just wondering how you knew to go after them first or was that a suggestion from your distributor? From the get go did you know that action/drug/thriller genre was the easiest sell? or is that what you wanted to do?

In a more general way, how the hell did you get to where you are at? You seem so knowledgable about so much of the process from conception of the idea to the hunt for distribution. Even your thoughts on festivals I thought was interesting. You know, that you weren't going to let it be screened unless you were invited. Is that all from experience? Have you failed a lot before this?

I'm just in awe, of your skill here, and the amazing energy you created around your film. Please expound about some of this process or maybe you have already and can provide links to previous conversations.
 
I spoke with some local (ne Indiana) filmmakers recently who make horror features in the 2500 budget range and sell DVDs at horror conventions. They say they always make a few hundred dollars over booth rental and expenses (500$ and up for a weekend). If you have a film in horror or sci fi in the micro budget range your proud of it might be an another strategy to bring in some added revenue . For them the fun, networking and meeting people who appreciate their work is the main reason they go but the money helps.
 
Zak Forsman said:
Well, it's like any business. Just making a movie, as difficult as that is, isn't enough to be successful -- if the goal is to make a living making independent movies. It's taken years, but we've just begun to learn how to position a micro-budget movie properly. There are genres that are more viable than others, there are strategies that will elevate your VOD sales tenfold, there are name actors you can afford that automatically trigger a "buy" from retailers like Walmart, etc. After five movies we finally "cracked the nut" of profitability. The real challenge at this level is keeping your budget low enough that you can make enough revenue to keep the movie-making machine moving, to produce more pictures. So the team itself becomes critical as everyone is wearing multiple hats. We liken each person at Sabi to being like a pillar. We know that if any one of us were to falter, the whole thing could collapse. My movie, Down and Dangerous, was made for under $50,000 and I don't know the exact figure but it did well enough to support our company for a year and fund another movie. That, despite it being pirated a couple weeks before our release date back on February 14, 2014. Cable and satellite VOD accounted for 80% of that. iTunes was 18% and the remaining 2% were from Amazon, XBOX, Vudu, Hulu and all the other platforms out there. But getting premiere placement on cable/satellite VOD systems is key, at least for us it was.

As a general rule, any distributor that you haven't heard of before they approach you with an offer is going to be worthless for anything beyond "just getting it out there". We were fortunate enough to be picked up by Gravitas Ventures for domestic VOD who is reputable and has a proven track record. And a year later Paramount looked at our movie, and despite having sold a handful or foreign territories, decided there was still enough "meat on the bone" and released our movie internationally, more or less doubling our revenue.

This is the movie by the way, in case you're wondering if making a movie that sells is within your reach. It is. If our crew of six could do it, anyone could.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/down-and-dangerous/id791920040

Click to expand...


Well Zak, I'm going to have to pop one of your bubbles here now.

Yeah, you did this with basically a core crew of 6 people like you said...
But I don't think you realize how remarkably and uncommonly talented you and your group really are.
I've worked with and around a ton of people in the film and video (and music) businesses for most of my life, and I spotted you from the fist minute of demo footage I saw you post.
You guys have not only very serious talent and skills, but probably a significant amount of innate aptitude for your chosen craft.

Your optimism is great, but I think there are very few non-professional-veteran 6-person crews in the country that are capable of working on your level.

Just my observation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top