Is cut and paste possible without re-encoding?

[guyburns]

In the next month or so I hope to start seriously playing around with Premiere CS6. Most of the playing around will be editing together and correcting clips from a GH2. However, some of what I want to do is simply splicing clips together from a variety of sources, and I'd prefer not to have to re-encode, both from a quality point of view and to save time.

A bit more background: I am in the process of setting up a home theatre and one of my ideas is to present "1950s" evenings, similar to what might have happened in a 1950s movie theatre. So, before interval there might be:

• My own introductory fanfare-type thing (like MGM's lion, or Rank's big cymbal)
• A newsreel
• A Tom and Jerry cartoon
• A home-made short from the GH2
• A B-grade movie.

After interval would come the main feature.

Now comes the problem. My home theatre consists of an Oppo BDP-93 driving a BenQ W7000 projector. If I play a series of AVCHD files (or any other type), there is always a pause between segments with a message on the screen that says "Source Searching". I've never seen such nonsense coming up between segments at the cinema, and I want to stop the message appearing. I reckon the only way I can do that is to splice the segments together somehow, but I'd rather not re-encode. The various segments would be in a variety of formats: PAL, NTSC, BluRay, AVCHD, with various resolutions and frame rates. My idea is to splice together all the before-interval items, and then when the time comes I just press play and all the segments proceed seamlessly.


QUES 1
Is it possible to cut and paste video without the final product having to be re-encoded? For example, imagine I want to extract a two-minute segment that is part of a 20-minute newsreel, PAL, 4:3, on DVD. By choosing suitable edit positions (start/finish), could the segment be extracted and saved without re-encoding, and play as a standalone video?

QUES 2
Is it possible to combine multiple segments of the same format (e.g. several NTSC segments) without re-encoding?

QUES 3
Is it possible to combine multiple segments of different formats (e.g. a PAL segment, followed by an NTSC segment, followed by an AVCHD segment) without re-encoding?

QUES 4
Given that my setup will play everything I throw at it, but with pauses, all I really need to do is to remove the pauses and make the screen blank while the Oppo and BenQ do their handshaking between segments. Any suggestions as to how I might do that outside of software splicing?


To sum up: is it feasible to link together several videos, without re-encoding, and then at a press of a button have them play seamlessly?

 

[Shooter]

ITs no big deal going to source footage and exporting a video stream of your choice for this purpose.

You are getting hung up on "fixing" the limitations of your hardware and re-encoding.

You need to Export to do what you want ..so you need to encode as something.

BTW - the mxed codecs mean that there is no way around this anyway.

 

[Liam Hall]

Use an intermediate codec. That's what they are for.

 

[Exact]

QUES 1
Is it possible to cut and paste video without the final product having to be re-encoded? For example, imagine I want to extract a two-minute segment that is part of a 20-minute newsreel, PAL, 4:3, on DVD. By choosing suitable edit positions (start/finish), could the segment be extracted and saved without re-encoding, and play as a standalone video?

Possible? Yes. Likely? No. Every time you make a cut you are breaking the AVCHD bit stream. Unless you always cut on a key frame you would have incomplete video. Something needs to be able to decode it properly and put it back together. There are lots of visually lossless ways to do this, so you really are trying to be a 'purist' for no reason. Besides, if the people are looking at the 'pixels' then your film wasn't worth watching. If they are watching the film for it's content they won't even notice the re-encoding (if they ever could anyway).

QUES 2
Is it possible to combine multiple segments of the same format (e.g. several NTSC segments) without re-encoding?

High quality intermediate codecs are used by film and TV companies all the time. Why are you afraid of them?

QUES 3
Is it possible to combine multiple segments of different formats (e.g. a PAL segment, followed by an NTSC segment, followed by an AVCHD segment) without re-encoding?

No. What would the player be playing?

QUES 4
Given that my setup will play everything I throw at it, but with pauses, all I really need to do is to remove the pauses and make the screen blank while the Oppo and BenQ do their handshaking between segments. Any suggestions as to how I might do that outside of software splicing?

You need to encode it ALL as a single codec single movie file. Done.

 

[guyburns]

Judging by the responses, it looks as if there is no way to combine multiple segments into a seamless whole without re-encoding (other than by using a piece of ply: see Back to 1982, below).

If I break a single video only at existing keyframes, I don't need to re-encode. Is that correct?


Comment from Exact:
High quality intermediate codecs are used by film and TV companies all the time. Why are you afraid of them?

I'm not afraid of them, it's just that I can't see an intermediate codec being of any use in this situation. I am not editing, I am wanting to splice together already edited segments. From my limited understanding (having yet to fire up Premiere), I thought that I could play around with video segments in native format within Premiere. Isn't that right? What's the advantage of using an intermediate codec when splicing segments?


Comment from Exact:
You need to encode it ALL as a single codec single movie file. Done.

"Done" implies what I want to do is simple and instantaneous. Simple, yes. I'm sure that within an hour or two of firing up Premiere for the first time, I"ll be able to import already edited clips, join them, and press Export. I've already gathered a dozen or so reference clips in preparation for exporting a test video sequence, duration about 1 minute. The clips are the fanfares of the major movie studios, in PAL, NTSC and Blu-ray formats, together with a few of my GH2 clips.

"Done" might be nearly instantaneous for my 1-minute test sequence, but how long will it take to export 90 minutes of video in H.264 format? My guess is overnight. I'd rather avoid that. And as for the re-encode not being visually noticeable: accepted. But the problem will be that I know it's been re-encoded and the image will have suffered some loss -- and I won't be happy about the knowing, visible degradation or not.


Is it really the case that there is no way of combining segments into a seamless whole, without re-encoding? I'm not trying to be difficult, I just want to know all the possibilities and where the problems lie. So I've done some tests.

1. I have just imported all my reference clips into VLC, and my iMac plays them almost seamlessly (1 second of black between clips) -- though it does resize the window for each clip depending on the resolution of the clip.

2. My Oppo/BenQ combination plays the segments perfectly on screen (better than the iMac, because the Oppo upscales beautifully without jaggies), and the clips are all nicely centred and upscaled to fit within the 1080p format... but there is a 10-second pause between each clip.

3. I suspect that if I take my Oppo to a mate's place and hook it up to his HD television via HDMI, that my test sequence will play perfectly without pauses. But I've yet to confirm that.​

So, is there no way within Premiere, in combination with some other software maybe, that I can combine video clips of various formats and have them considered to be one big seamless movie? Could I purposely put a 1-second black segment between clips, and somehow "grade" between the various formats (VLC can do it). Any possibility of exporting each segment to a Blu-ray chapter (or whatever they're called), and having the various formats encapsulated within the video stream? Is it not technically possible to encapsulate raw NTSC or PAL within a Blu-ray stream?


Back to 1982
This problem of stitching together various video segments reminds of my first experience of cross-fading slide shows, way back in 1982. This guy came along to the local walking club to show images of South-West Tasmania, and he had two projectors. No electronics involved in the cross-fading, just a piece of plywood about 6' wide, pointed at each end, manually moved back and forth, progressively blocking one image while revealing the other. One image seemed to dissolve into the other like magic, at least to me. I thought to myself: "I could build an electronic version of that, using phase-controlled thyristors". And that's just what I did a few months later, but for 6 projectors on three screens. Subsequently I produced about 20 audio visuals, which I intend transferring to HD over the coming years. They'll become a part of my 1950's evenings -- and I don't want to have to re-encode them if it can be helped.

Thirty years on, my slide projectors are abandoned in the cupboard. In their place I've got a flash Blu-ray player and a digital projector, churning out gigabits per second. Given that I really want to avoid re-encoding already finished product, it looks like I might have to get a piece of ply, rig it up in front of the projector lens, and at a suitable time physically block the light from the projector so that the audience doesn't see the "Source searching" messages. Anyone got a simple stepper-motor drive circuit?

 

[Amr Rahmy]

what is possible and available today in various software,

if the video files were all of the same format, you could split and combine them in some applications on key-frames without re-encoding. some software also includes a smart encoding feature that encodes only the necessary parts between key-frames if you did not combine the video track on key-frames.

you could always use uncompressed formats that will not degrade the video output.

intermediate codecs do not degrade the image to the level that you would imagine, some of these codecs are advertised as visually losses, and they are.

now you can use uncompressed, prores 4444, prores HQ 422, dnxhd, h.264( in various settings (size vs encoding time vs quality) ),

uncompressed, 3:1, 5:1, 10:1, 20:1, 50:1 compression is a matter of storage cost (you may need faster drives to playback the file).

making an uncompressed file, and then encoding to prores 4444 or prores 442 does not take much time depending on disk speed.

my opinion,
if you chose a GH2 to capture the footage, you will not loose any quality or information in the image from encoding the project to prores 4444, prores HQ 422, Prores LT or any other intermediate codec.

 

[David Jimerson]

Is it really the case that there is no way of combining segments into a seamless whole, without re-encoding?

That's really the case. You have a number of files of varying formats. You want a seamless file, so that file must be a single format. Therefore, at least some of your clips will have to be re-encoded. You cannot escape this if you want a single file.

So, is there no way within Premiere, in combination with some other software maybe, that I can combine video clips of various formats and have them considered to be one big seamless movie?

Not without re-encoding.

Could I purposely put a 1-second black segment between clips, and somehow "grade" between the various formats (VLC can do it).

No. And no, VLC can't output a single file containing different formats.

Any possibility of exporting each segment to a Blu-ray chapter (or whatever they're called), and having the various formats encapsulated within the video stream? Is it not technically possible to encapsulate raw NTSC or PAL within a Blu-ray stream?

No.

 

[Exact]

Comment from Exact:
You need to encode it ALL as a single codec single movie file. Done.


"Done" implies what I want to do is simple and instantaneous.

No, that wasn't implied, but I guess you could choose in infer it. It IS simple (you can throw everything on the same timeline, right click, choose scale from frame size) and then (subject to any tweaking you may want to do) export at H264 (or any other codec you choose from the plethora of options available).

Simple, yes. I'm sure that within an hour or two of firing up Premiere for the first time, I'll be able to import already edited clips, join them, and press Export. I've already gathered a dozen or so reference clips in preparation for exporting a test video sequence, duration about 1 minute. The clips are the fanfares of the major movie studios, in PAL, NTSC and Blu-ray formats, together with a few of my GH2 clips.

If you plan on doing this a lot then the sooner you get started on the real solution the better, instead of trying to bypass it, only to end up back where you should have been in the first place.

"Done" might be nearly instantaneous for my 1-minute test sequence, but how long will it take to export 90 minutes of video in H.264 format? My guess is overnight. I'd rather avoid that. And as for the re-encode not being visually noticeable: accepted.

Nothing is instant with HD video. Get used to it


I can export 90 minutes of H264 in anything from about 20 mins up to about 3 hours depending on what it's coming from and how many passes I let the encoder take. Much of this will depend on your hardware. Sure, you could leave it overnight if you really want, but that's not what I normally do.

But the problem will be that I know it's been re-encoded and the image will have suffered some loss -- and I won't be happy about the knowing, visible degradation or not.

Seriously? Have you actually done some tests using high bit rates? We can all be snobbish about this, but for the most part, if you're using home cinema equipment then that is going to degrade the picture quality far more than anything you are ever going to see from re-encoding the footage.


My guess is giving the GH2 footage to some one who knows what they are doing with colour grading would dramatically "improve" the look of the frames while still requiring a re-encode. Now, if that were the case, would you still reject the footage because you 'knew' it had been re-encoded?


Every shot you see in the movies, on DVD or Blu-ray has been transcoded (often more than once or twice). How do you feel about that loss in quality now?


Such fear is usually the domain of noobs who don't yet understand just how much files can be pushed and pulled around and yet actually IMPROVE the look of the final output.


Do some test encoding. Don't bother pixel peeping (that's for fools who don't know better). Sit and watch at the correct viewing distance. Now, anything that came from standard definition that gets blown up to HD is going to look crap. End of story. But the HD footage should hold up very well. Your screen, ambient lighting and projector colour calibration is going to make so much more difference than a high bit rate H264 re-encode ever will.

 

[Shooter]

Maybe I am wrong but I think am starting to read that the OP may just want to play directly out of a Premiere timeline...

That would do exactly what he wants, if he has the system that will play what ever he has at realtime...and if he can manage the "scaling" at one end of the chain.

An Aja or BM HDSDI card would be probably appropriate hardware to have involved.

 

[Amr Rahmy]

if a computer is involved, which is a few hundred or thousand dollar replacement to the bd player, he can just use any video player like bs player or gom player that play and transition between clips seamlessly.

 

[Shooter]

Do those players stream a series of individual movie files as one?

 

[Amr Rahmy]

most video players have playlists, gom player uses it's own codecs for most supported files and can use available codecs on the system otherwise, it's requires little cpu power and does not spike much when transitioning between video files, 2-5% if that(depending on the machine of course), so it won't go to black or hang or lag between most files. and you can easily change or assign key shortcuts and you don't have to see any HUD elements in full screen, the scaling is also extremely fast compared to other players.

bs player just uses what is available of codecs on the machine, if you also use libavcodec as the decoder, it's also extremely fast and takes little CPU cycles and you can also assign key shortcuts. not sure if the resolution changes it might flash for a moment trying to adjust but it still would not be an annoyingly long lag. and you can turn off on screen information.

definitely faster than for example windows media player, it would stops a file, goes to black, start buffering the new file and then starts the new file, that's how it's programmed. and it might display the name of the file or some other information on the screen without an option to turn it off.

of course these were just of the top of my head examples, windows media classic needs settings adjustment of rendering engine as i may recall. but there are tons of different players for windows.

the quicktime player can combine various files of the same format on one player and even save the movie as one file, but probably does not work(just tested on pc, it turns the newer clip white, not sure about mac at the moment, but i tried it before with same formats, it works, the quicktime player is like a simple nle, you can use it to make video files, export files, even create files, it's awesome on mac, and well need with the lack of third party players compared to windows)

 

[guyburns]

Maybe I am wrong but I think am starting to read that the OP may just want to play directly out of a Premiere timeline...

That would do exactly what he wants, if he has the system that will play what ever he has at realtime...and if he can manage the "scaling" at one end of the chain.

An Aja or BM SDHDI card would be probably appropriate hardware to have involved.

1. What is a "BM SDHDI card"? I googled, but nought came up. Can I connect it to my iMac?
2. So what I want to do is possible, as long as I play direct from Premiere? Not that I want to use a computer and Premiere for cinema evenings, but this is the sort of thing I want to know. At this stage I want all options on the table that don't involve re-encoding.

From Amr Rahmy
"bs player or gom player ... [can] play and transition between clips seamlessly". Sounds good. I hope there's a Mac version for those programs so I can test.


Thanks for the other responses. Some are a bit heavy, but I'm here to learn so can handle that. But I would ask responders to Think Different, as Apple says. I don't mind too much about how I get this seamless playback, but I do have a problem with having to re-encode already encoded video just for the sake of playing it in combination with other clips. That's my problem. If there's no way around it, so be it: I'll re-encode. But until someone clearly shows me that it's not possible because the laws of physics are violated, I'll assume the difficulty of seamlessly playing a variety of clips is because of software/hardware limitations, and surely I can overcome those limitations without resorting to plywood and stepper motors.

So, to restate the problem: to simulate at home what you see when you go to the cinema – a seamless stream of a variety of videos. At my local cinema that means opening with some promo fanfares (provided by one of the Australian movie distribution companies), followed by a series of ads for local businesses that look like, and probably were, shot on a $200 camcorder in 4:3 PAL format. Then comes the previews (sometimes in HD, sometimes not), then some more fanfares for the distributor/movie house, and then the movie itself. Between the various clips there is only blackness for several seconds. You never see any cursors, computer desktops, "Source Searching" messages, or general mayhem like you do at every amateur showing of slides or movies I've ever been to. I'm having none of that nonsense at my movie evenings. The audience will be seated, the lights will dim, I will press play, and there will be no interruptions except fades to black until interval. At the local cinema I reckon they do it manually by blocking or dimming the projector lamp between clips. They certainly don't re-encode anything because two years ago I spoke with the projectionist about hiring the cinema to do exactly what I've now decided to do at home, and he said their digital movies arrive on hard drives that have all kinds of fancy protection to stop copying of any kind. The projectionist doesn't re-encode, yet he provides seamless viewing. If the local cinema can do it, so can I – I just have to find out how to do it.


Possibilities thus far (starting from least desirable)
All options except #2 and #7 are played from the Oppo via a USB drive.

1. Join videos in Premiere and re-encode to H.264. Pros: simple, relatively small file size (probably less than 20 GB for 90 minutes). Cons: at least several hours to encode; some loss of quality (detectable or not, it's there); and would require a complete run through to ensure no encoding problems. If problems were detected, start again. I'd have to allow a full day to generate and test the product.
2. Join videos in Premiere and play from Premiere. Pros: very simple and quick. Cons: have to use a computer running Premiere, and mirror the monitor to the projector; unsure as to how well the iMac and Premiere (compared to the Oppo) will upscale PAL and NTSC videos; unless I buy a MacBook ($1000+), I'd have to use my 27" iMac which would be intrusive in my home theatre; image would have to be down-converted from the iMac's 2560 x 1440 to HD.
3. Join videos in Premiere and re-encode to an intermediate codec. Pros: simple, and I assume much quicker than a H.264 encode. Cons: large file size, probably upwards of 100 GB for 90 minutes; creating and verifying a backup would take several hours; Oppo can't play the file so would have to use a computer with all the associated problems (see #2).
4. Place the separate videos inside a folder and use a computer running VLC or similar to play them. Pros: very simple, no re-encoding involved. Cons: using a computer (see #2).
5. Place the separate videos inside a folder and use the Oppo to play them. Pros: very simple, no re-encoding. Cons: a 10-second pause with a "Source Searching" message. The pause is not the problem; the message is.
6. As per #5, but manually block the projector light between clips. Pros: very simple, no re-encoding. Cons: have to manually block the projector light at the appropriate time.
7. Place the separate videos inside a folder and use a player/projector combination that does not lose sync. Problem solved!

One more impossible thing before breakfast
Before my movie evenings start, I'll be giving a spiel about why I'm showing a particular classic, or I'll invite a movie-buff friend to do the honours. The spiel will be live, interacting via a remote with sample movie clips, exactly the same as an old-style slide show: talk, bring up a still or a video, talk a bit more, cross fade to another still/video, and so on. In the days of slides a fairly simple thing to do: press a button, and cross fade to the next slide. But, as with my seamless video problem, I suspect that doing the same in the digital world via a pushbutton is going to prove difficult.

So, given a series of stills and videos clips (call them segments), can Premiere or other software assemble them together, with break points between each, such that they act as if they are a series of slides in a magazine under the control of a push button? I don't mind what hardware, software, format, or delivery medium is involved, is it technically possible to mimic digitally an old-style slide show? Meaning: show the first segment and it stops; press a button and it cross-fades to the next segment (if a video, plays the video) and stops. Just like showing a series of slides, but these slides can be stills or videos, and they cross fade.

 

[David Jimerson]

If the local cinema can do it, so can I – I just have to find out how to do it.

The local cinema has hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of hardware that you don't, and all of that hardware is likely integrated in ways your player and projector are not. Your Blu-ray player is probably internally switching formats, so that takes time, and the projector can only work with what the player sends it.

You're basically saying "my neighbor has a Ferrari which can do 0-100 in 2.4 seconds; I should be able do that with my Holden."

But until someone clearly shows me that it's not possible because the laws of physics are violated, I'll assume the difficulty of seamlessly playing a variety of clips is because of software/hardware limitations, and surely I can overcome those limitations without resorting to plywood and stepper motors.

Well, no, you can't. Not with what you have available to you. An iMac, a Blu-ray player, and a BENQ projector aren't going to get you there in the way you want to be there.

 

[Exact]

You're basically saying "my neighbor has a Ferrari which can do 0-100 in 2.4 seconds; I should be able do that with my Holden."

Perhaps you could - but not on a perfectly flat road Dropping it of a cliff would probably do it though

#2 Not recommended unless you have either a very beefy computer or you rendered your sequence. That last thing you want is stuttering (or worse, frozen) playback because Premiere can't keep up with real time playback of different movie types. Even so, as you said, this is not ideal.

I'm not yet grasping the problem with the large files. Do you have a shortage of HDD space?

If you don't mind the extra hours, you could actually compress and export for Blu-ray Now you have a disc you can keep too

In terms of exporting a file and not knowing if it's going to work or not, simply bring the file back in to Premiere and skim through it to al the relevant change over points and you should be good to go. It's not often Premiere Pro screws up on us for this sort of thing - and when it does it's usually user error!

You talk about using Premiere Pro in the future. Do you actually have it already? FCP X is much faster at importing / editing / exporting this sort of thing than Premiere Pro is on a relatively recent Mac. Something to think about. Premiere Pro will cause you to conform audio (basically transcode to 32 bit float) before you can do anything. FCP X can work with the media pretty much right away and be exporting in moments rather than delays due to 'conforming'.

We have both Premiere Pro and FCP X and each has their strengths and weaknesses. For the sort of thing you are doing FCP X seems more suitable!

 

[Exact]

So, given a series of stills and videos clips (call them segments), can Premiere or other software assemble them together, with break points between each, such that they act as if they are a series of slides in a magazine under the control of a push button? I don't mind what hardware, software, format, or delivery medium is involved, is it technically possible to mimic digitally an old-style slide show? Meaning: show the first segment and it stops; press a button and it cross-fades to the next segment (if a video, plays the video) and stops. Just like showing a series of slides, but these slides can be stills or videos, and they cross fade.

That's called a power point or KeyNote presentation !!!!

 

[Tony Hernandez]

In the next month or so I hope to start seriously playing around with Premiere CS6. Most of the playing around will be editing together and correcting clips from a GH2. However, some of what I want to do is simply splicing clips together from a variety of sources, and I'd prefer not to have to re-encode, both from a quality point of view and to save time.

Just the last version of Cinemartin Cinec (1.4) allows to cut videos (from user defined START and user defined END points (frames)) with the option to not encode (so not reencode not any similar), so just instant !

 

[Amr Rahmy]

you could have mentioned the presentation part from the beginning, you need a presentation software like "microsoft powerpoint" or "apple keynote". and you could have made the platform clear from the start, you want a mac solution.

- you need apple keynote for the presentation portion(it's part of iwork if not mistaken), (you probably can put video in the keynote and handle everything inside one program if not test vlc).
- so you need a computer. not an option anymore.
- and a second monitor does not have to be a mirror of the first monitor, actually it would be better if not, the software be it a video player or the presentation software can be configured to use the second monitor to display the video or the keynote. no one sees your operating system screen.
- if the small mac remote uses infrared which i believe it does, you don't have to get a nicer remote if you don't want to, but you will need an accessory to extend the reach of the remote, radio shack or other electronic stores sell these pyramid shaped mirrors that reflect and extend infrared light from remotes across different rooms. even if you buy a fancier remote, you might need it.


now what connections do you have on the imac and what connections do you have on the projector?

 

[Exact]

Apple Keynote is available *really cheap* form the App Store.

Depending on what Mac you have, a mini display port to HDMI should run the projector.

The problem is, now you need to put the project together in KeyNote, OTOH it could be more simple and faster than Premiere Pro provided it can deal with all the codecs.

It's a while since I played with Keynote, but it MAY be able to play mixed media types. You'll have to download and try it !

 

[guyburns]

Perhaps you could - but not on a perfectly flat road Dropping it of a cliff would probably do it though

You talk about using Premiere Pro in the future. Do you actually have it already? FCP X is much faster at importing / editing / exporting this sort of thing than Premiere Pro is on a relatively recent Mac. Something to think about... We have both Premiere Pro and FCP X and each has their strengths and weaknesses. For the sort of thing you are doing FCP X seems more suitable!

I purchased and downloaded Adobe Master Collection yesterday because I wanted Photoshop, Indesign and Acrobat. Premiere is like a free bonus. So, although FCP would probably be my first choice, I've got Premiere. But I won't be firing it up until after I install the mentioned software, get them working with my existing files, and then read through the Premiere manual in it's entirety, making notes. I reckon it'll be about a month before I get serious with Premiere. And I want to be well prepared when I first open it, hence this thread.