Is a good sound recordist a magician? Or is just about money?

J

jghenderson

Well-known member
On every single production I direct or help my friends with, the audio is ALWAYS the biggest issue.

We have a boom pole, an H4N, and $250 microphones. We put the microphone as close as possible to the talent, make sure levels are good. Hit record.

Despite all this, the audio always ends up sounding like crap.

Then I go work on a professional commercial, and the sound guy basically does exactly what we do. Puts the mic on a boom pole, gets it close to the talent. That's seemingly all he does, and this guy is getting paid close to $1000/day, which is justified, because for some reason his audio sounds friggin beautiful.

So one of two things is happening here:

Either his microphone costs thousands of dollars, and his mixer costs thousands of dollars, and that is the only way to get good sound.

OR

He's a magician.


I've pretty much given up on getting good sound. I'm just gonna eat only one meal a day so I can afford to hire a magician.
 
Is the person running the boom and mixing familiar with audio, or is it whatever unlucky sap/cousin you wrangled up to do the sweaty work? Like J said- running a better preamp between your mic and recorder will help a good deal, and make sure to run the outs as 1/4" from whatever preamp you use into the Zoom so you can use the line-level input (unless the H4N has a way to make the XLR's line-level, I know the H4 didn't).

What are you noticing is wrong with your own audio? What mics are you using? Is there tons of handling noise? Are you using a proper shockmount or just putting the microphone on a clip? What kind of windscreen, if any, are you using?
 
Nickpickles said:
(unless the H4N has a way to make the XLR's line-level, I know the H4 didn't).
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my h4 has xlr line level in, that was the only reason i bought it

I'm about to sell it, it will turn up in the dvxuser market place along with my MM1 in the next week or so
 
I got my wires crossed. The H4N has line-level in only on the 1/4" inputs.

I just sold my FP-24 mixer (Sound Devices MixPre) for a cheap price on here. If you want a stepup in recorders I have an R-44 up that's fairly priced.

J Davis said:
my h4 has xlr line level in, that was the only reason i bought it

I'm about to sell it, it will turn up in the dvxuser market place along with my MM1 in the next week or so
Click to expand...
 
What mic are you using, and how are you mounting it?

Yes maybe poor quality equipment is to blame, but technique counts for a lot, too.

Positioning the mic above the speaker's head isn't the only thing you need to do. You also have to aim the mic properly, you have to account for acoustically reflective surfaces (hard walls, ceilings, and floors,) and you have to get the levels dialed in properly.

Qualify "sounds like crap" and we can help you more. Maybe post a sample.
 
I'm not a sound person (obviously), so I don't quite know how to describe what's wrong with the sound. It just lacks any depth or richness if that makes sense. As if they are at the end of a hallway shouting back at the microphone.

So if what i'm understanding is correct, the only real way to get broadcast/theater level audio is to throw more money at it? I swear a few years ago when I bought the H4N, I bought it because everyone was lauding it's capabilities, and how it could record amazing sound for little cost. But now it seems that recording straight into it is actually not a very good idea?


For reference, the mic i'm using is the Audio Technica 897, and I have a shock mount for it.
 
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I think you're getting reflections from the hard surfaces around your mic. You might need a hypercardioid mic (which is better than a shotgun indoors,) and some carpets and/or sound blankets.

The preamps in the H4N do suck, but they would only introduce noise or give you a low signal, not reverberation (which is why it sounds like you're having trouble with.)

Also, that "theater level" sound is only after many hours of audio mastering and sound editing done by professionals. The goal of an on-set recordist is to get the cleanest possible sound for the audio people to work with later.
 
Good location sound recording is a complex and difficult craft. Just buying a recorder and a microphone is not going to make a person a great sound recordists. I am not a sound guy and can not give you advice as to the specific issues you are having. I have had the opportunity to work with great location mixers on a couple of projects and I am of the opinion that they are magicians, or at least as capable and talented a crafts-person as a good cinematographer. I would advise, first, getting a copy of Barry and David's "Sound for Video" instruction DVD then work on what gear you are using and the technique.
 
jghenderson said:
I'm not a sound person (obviously), so I don't quite know how to describe what's wrong with the sound. It just lacks any depth or richness if that makes sense. As if they are at the end of a hallway shouting back at the microphone.

So if what i'm understanding is correct, the only real way to get broadcast/theater level audio is to throw more money at it? I swear a few years ago when I bought the H4N, I bought it because everyone was lauding it's capabilities, and how it could record amazing sound for little cost. But now it seems that recording straight into it is actually not a very good idea?


For reference, the mic i'm using is the Audio Technica 897, and I have a shock mount for it.
Click to expand...

The 897 while not fantastic, is usable. I prefer the NTG-2 for that price range but they seem to have problems playing nice with the H4N.

The thing with lower-priced recorders is the technology changes rapidly and newer, flashier, better models come out with higher quality and features at a rate faster than pro-level equipment. This has to do with the amount of manufacturers in each area and the market. The Sound Devices 702 came out at or over seven years ago, and it's still the industry standard 2-track field recorder. Why? Because it works everytime, in a lot of conditions, and sounds great. There's no compromises on the thing and that's why it still costs $2k. The H4N, when introduced, was a breakthrough for low-cost portable recorders. Since then a lot better options have popped up. Now, it's not a terrible recorder by any means (this isn't ADAT we're talking about here) but it does have it's limitations, and knowing them and working inside of them can produce good results.

Educating yourself or having someone working with you who is knowledgeable in location sound will do some wonders. Picking the right mic for the situation, having the cleanest signal chain you can, and knowing how to properly mic someone will bring you closer to that "awesome sound".
 
Seems like I just really need to find a good sound recordist. Problem is, I cannot yet afford the really good sound people around here, and none of my friends have any interest in sound whatsoever. So many people want to be Director's or DP's or Actors, but almost no one seems to want to be a sound guy. Makes finding good people that know what they're doing very difficult.
 
jghenderson said:
Seems like I just really need to find a good sound recordist. Problem is, I cannot yet afford the really good sound people around here, and none of my friends have any interest in sound whatsoever. So many people want to be Director's or DP's or Actors, but almost no one seems to want to be a sound guy. Makes finding good people that know what they're doing very difficult.
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Yes it does. You are in the Atlanta area I take it. There should be some very competent location sound mixers in that area. Now they won't be cheap, but I bet they are pretty friendly folks. You also said that you worked on commercial gigs with good sound recordists. Get their contact information and ask them about your situation. If you are honest, appreciative of the skills that they have, DO NOT JERK THEM AROUND, and ask them for advice I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut that they know folks that are up and coming that may have some free time to work on short projects for you, at a low cost. Give it a try, ask.
 
jghenderson said:
It just lacks any depth or richness if that makes sense. As if they are at the end of a hallway shouting back at the microphone.
Click to expand...

Could be the menu settings in the zoom, tap the audio technica mic when recording then tap the zoom mics built into the front of the unit and see which makes the louder pop on the recording.
What you described sounds like routing is for the wrong mics
 
jghenderson said:
On every single production I direct or help my friends with, the audio is ALWAYS the biggest issue.

We have a boom pole, an H4N, and $250 microphones. We put the microphone as close as possible to the talent, make sure levels are good. Hit record.

Despite all this, the audio always ends up sounding like crap.

Then I go work on a professional commercial, and the sound guy basically does exactly what we do. Puts the mic on a boom pole, gets it close to the talent. That's seemingly all he does, and this guy is getting paid close to $1000/day, which is justified, because for some reason his audio sounds friggin beautiful.

So one of two things is happening here:

Either his microphone costs thousands of dollars, and his mixer costs thousands of dollars, and that is the only way to get good sound.

OR

He's a magician.


I've pretty much given up on getting good sound. I'm just gonna eat only one meal a day so I can afford to hire a magician.
Click to expand...


It's both.

It's using good, professional, equipment and knowing how to use it
 
This is the equivalent question of "I have a Guitar just like Eddie van Halen and an amp like him as well, why doesnt my playing sound like Eddie's?"

Audio has its own set of skill requirements and is an art-form all onto itself, the gear is only a small portion of the equation, knowing how to properly use the gear is the rest.
(hint... just watching levels is only a small part of this)

A good sound guy can get good audio with minimal gear, because he (or she) knows how to use it properly and knows what they are listening to and how to adjust for changes.

in audio just like in music, its the person playing the guitar NOT the guitar that makes the great song!!!

Cheers and good luck.
 
Let me put it to you this way (using your own post):

On every single production I direct or help my friends with, the video is ALWAYS the biggest issue.

We have a tripod, a 550D, and $250 lens. We put the camera as close as possible to the talent, make sure waveforms look good. Hit record.

Despite all this, the video always ends up looking like crap.

Then I go work on a professional commercial, and the camera guy basically does exactly what we do. Puts the camera on a tripod, gets it close to the talent. That's seemingly all he does, and this guy is getting paid close to $1000/day, which is justified, because for some reason his video looks friggin beautiful.

So one of two things is happening here:

Either his lens costs thousands of dollars, and his camera costs thousands of dollars, and that is the only way to get good video.

OR

He's a magician.


I've pretty much given up on getting good video. I'm just gonna eat only one meal a day so I can afford to hire a magician.



So you see, perspective is everything.
 
Drop me a line. I'm in Atlanta and moonlight as a production sound mixer so as long as you're shooting on weekends or evenings we can probably work out a schedule.

I carry a fairly large kit with quality gear and have been doing this for quite a while, but because I do it as a moonlighting gig, my rates are lower than the big boys due to my limited availability.

You can find some of my work listed on IMDB (Gerard Foret). I can also refer you to some of the local directors I work with who can vouch for the quality of my work.

jghenderson said:
Seems like I just really need to find a good sound recordist. Problem is, I cannot yet afford the really good sound people around here, and none of my friends have any interest in sound whatsoever. So many people want to be Director's or DP's or Actors, but almost no one seems to want to be a sound guy. Makes finding good people that know what they're doing very difficult.
Click to expand...
 
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