i am going to shoot a short in an office setting. In this office there are large windows which flood the office space with light. However for this movie i will also be using a basic light kit to light inside the cubicles. The shot either looks very blue or red depending on what white balance preset i put it on. What white balance setting should i put the camera to 5600 or 3200? Should i cover the windows and just use the light kit? any suggestions or solutions.
inside situation with outdoor light coming in...
- Thread starter JimtheJib
- Start date
Steward
Active member
If the office is primarily 5600 daylight, then by all means white balance to the daylight (5600).
If the cubicle shots are completely indoors (no daylight visible) then you can use your light kits. Bear in mind though, most offices are indeed lit with flourecent lights, which are 95% daylight balanced anyway. Use color correction gels to balance the light to daylight and shoot with the daylight white balance. The DVX 100 has color correction in place that adds red to the offensive flourecents, which looks really good.
If the interior shot does include daylight, then it's a good rule of thumb to let the daylight be the dominant source. Any additional light should be balanced to daylight as well. It looks so much more natural that way.
Good luck...
If the cubicle shots are completely indoors (no daylight visible) then you can use your light kits. Bear in mind though, most offices are indeed lit with flourecent lights, which are 95% daylight balanced anyway. Use color correction gels to balance the light to daylight and shoot with the daylight white balance. The DVX 100 has color correction in place that adds red to the offensive flourecents, which looks really good.
If the interior shot does include daylight, then it's a good rule of thumb to let the daylight be the dominant source. Any additional light should be balanced to daylight as well. It looks so much more natural that way.
Good luck...
I'm a huge fan of 1/2CTB because full CTB loses a ton of light and you're fighting daylight anyhow. Plus, that little orange tint really identifies the lighting as tungsten and provides some nice contrast between interior and exterior.
If your motivation is florescents, I'd have to say go with the full CTB, though.
If your motivation is florescents, I'd have to say go with the full CTB, though.
Icarus2005
Well-known member
I've shot this type scene before on bright day, and it took nearly 4k worth of lights to bring up the interior so the exterior would blow out so bad.
yes, I used 1/2 CTB on all my lights and balanced to daylight
of course, you could shoot it early in the morning or just before sunset if you don't have enough lights
yes, I used 1/2 CTB on all my lights and balanced to daylight
of course, you could shoot it early in the morning or just before sunset if you don't have enough lights
Daniel Skubal
Veteran
I'm wondering what ctb is myself.
Daniel Skubal
Veteran
Oh wait, just popped in my head. Color temp balance? Eh? That'd be a gel. I think you were right Jim
Color temperatore blue. CTO is color temperature orange.
CTB eats up much more light than CTO. Thus some people like to use Kinos and HMIs if they can afford them, since they're both far more efficient and naturally blue. (Well, Kinos can be whatever you want because they are magic!) They are gels and they are cheap and recommended very much. I couldn't imagine shooting without them, although I guess I have before....
If you can afford to rent kinoflos or an HMI and shoot later in the day (bonus--later in the day means an orange tint to the light outdoors so you can use weaker CTB) then you can work with less light, but you have to shoot quickly. This is a tricky location, too, obviously, since reflections will be an issue. Good luck!
CTB eats up much more light than CTO. Thus some people like to use Kinos and HMIs if they can afford them, since they're both far more efficient and naturally blue. (Well, Kinos can be whatever you want because they are magic!) They are gels and they are cheap and recommended very much. I couldn't imagine shooting without them, although I guess I have before....
If you can afford to rent kinoflos or an HMI and shoot later in the day (bonus--later in the day means an orange tint to the light outdoors so you can use weaker CTB) then you can work with less light, but you have to shoot quickly. This is a tricky location, too, obviously, since reflections will be an issue. Good luck!
Gopher_Greene
Well-known member
I don't mean to be picky but...
Typical flourescents spike in the green and need to be corrected with magenta (also known as minus green) rather then red.
Blocking out the daylight is usually the best answer, because it gives you total control over the lighting. Large productions will place a buterfly above the window then blow a 24K tungsten through the window, why do they go to this amount of trouble? to control the lighting. The shot can be reproduced with accuracy and can maniplated at will. The more you control the light the moere you can make the scene appear as you want it too.
Typical flourescents spike in the green and need to be corrected with magenta (also known as minus green) rather then red.
Blocking out the daylight is usually the best answer, because it gives you total control over the lighting. Large productions will place a buterfly above the window then blow a 24K tungsten through the window, why do they go to this amount of trouble? to control the lighting. The shot can be reproduced with accuracy and can maniplated at will. The more you control the light the moere you can make the scene appear as you want it too.
Gopher's got it right. Also, CTB and CTO both come in varying degrees of correction.
Full CTB (a blue gel) corrects light to 5600 Degrees Kelvin which is roughly the color of daylight. And Full CTO (an orange gel) corrects light to 3200 Degrees Kelvin which is roughly the color of a normal incandescent light bulb. Correction gels are different than "Party" gels which are used to create colors in patches on screen for mood lighting. Both CTB and CTO are available in Full, 2/3, Half, Quarter, and 1/8 and are made by Lee or Rosco. They are spoken of above as inexpensive. What they mean is that they are RELATIVELY inexpensive. You can easily invest HUNDREDS of dollars in a set of gels. And they are expendable. So they will need to be replaced when you burn them up. I have about $500 in gels in my lighting kit including Correction and Party gels. They come in small sheets for individual lights..or you can buy them in rolls. I haven't had to buy a roll lately. Last time I did it was $150 to $200, I think. A single sheet will be under $10.
As stated above your options are: 1. correct the incoming light. 2. color balance your camera to the incoming light. 3. Block out the incomming light and balance to your light kit or ambient light.
Your incandescent light kit probably makes light at approx 3200K (degrees Kelvin). An HMI (a rental unless you are rich) makes light at about 5600K. Kino's (also rentals) are special flourescent lights. And as reputed above are great and can make light at various degrees K by changing the bulbs. They don't have the punch that HMI's have. But have other positive attributes.
Flourescents make light at widely varying temperatures. And do tend toward the green. Most facilities maintenance men don't give a flying flip that they are replacing a 4000K flourescent bulb right next to a 4400K bulb. So most office buildings have an inconsistant range of color temps working, often along with sodium vapor and other kinds of lighting fixtures. The best thing to do may be to turn them off.
There are light meters that you can use to measure the ambient color temperature of the existing light. Using the reading you get, you can employ a gel swatch. For example, the "minus green" (a purple gel) spoken of above is held over the lens as you white balance, thus "tricking" the camera into balancing to a different color temp. This may not be possible with the camera you are using. But its a very professional way to work within the lighting available.
Something no one mentioned is that you can use ND (Neutral Density) gels to cut down the intensity of incoming light through a window. This will reduce the differential number of F-stops between the outdoor light streaming in from a window, and the ambient light within a room. ND can be used in conjunction with color correction. Color correction gels also have some effect of reducing light output whether they are placed upon a window or upon a light fixture.
Besides color correction, party gels, and ND, you can get diffusion gels which spread the light out and soften the impact of your light's punch. Look for 216 or 250 (Rosco or Lee I can't remember). It looks something like wax paper. There are other good diffusers like Spun Glass and Hapsburg Frost. You can also place scrims (full and half) in front of your lights to reduce their intensity. And let's not forget dimmers.... But now we're getting really deep.
A good Director of Photography will combine techniques of all of the above.
Full CTB (a blue gel) corrects light to 5600 Degrees Kelvin which is roughly the color of daylight. And Full CTO (an orange gel) corrects light to 3200 Degrees Kelvin which is roughly the color of a normal incandescent light bulb. Correction gels are different than "Party" gels which are used to create colors in patches on screen for mood lighting. Both CTB and CTO are available in Full, 2/3, Half, Quarter, and 1/8 and are made by Lee or Rosco. They are spoken of above as inexpensive. What they mean is that they are RELATIVELY inexpensive. You can easily invest HUNDREDS of dollars in a set of gels. And they are expendable. So they will need to be replaced when you burn them up. I have about $500 in gels in my lighting kit including Correction and Party gels. They come in small sheets for individual lights..or you can buy them in rolls. I haven't had to buy a roll lately. Last time I did it was $150 to $200, I think. A single sheet will be under $10.
As stated above your options are: 1. correct the incoming light. 2. color balance your camera to the incoming light. 3. Block out the incomming light and balance to your light kit or ambient light.
Your incandescent light kit probably makes light at approx 3200K (degrees Kelvin). An HMI (a rental unless you are rich) makes light at about 5600K. Kino's (also rentals) are special flourescent lights. And as reputed above are great and can make light at various degrees K by changing the bulbs. They don't have the punch that HMI's have. But have other positive attributes.
Flourescents make light at widely varying temperatures. And do tend toward the green. Most facilities maintenance men don't give a flying flip that they are replacing a 4000K flourescent bulb right next to a 4400K bulb. So most office buildings have an inconsistant range of color temps working, often along with sodium vapor and other kinds of lighting fixtures. The best thing to do may be to turn them off.
There are light meters that you can use to measure the ambient color temperature of the existing light. Using the reading you get, you can employ a gel swatch. For example, the "minus green" (a purple gel) spoken of above is held over the lens as you white balance, thus "tricking" the camera into balancing to a different color temp. This may not be possible with the camera you are using. But its a very professional way to work within the lighting available.
Something no one mentioned is that you can use ND (Neutral Density) gels to cut down the intensity of incoming light through a window. This will reduce the differential number of F-stops between the outdoor light streaming in from a window, and the ambient light within a room. ND can be used in conjunction with color correction. Color correction gels also have some effect of reducing light output whether they are placed upon a window or upon a light fixture.
Besides color correction, party gels, and ND, you can get diffusion gels which spread the light out and soften the impact of your light's punch. Look for 216 or 250 (Rosco or Lee I can't remember). It looks something like wax paper. There are other good diffusers like Spun Glass and Hapsburg Frost. You can also place scrims (full and half) in front of your lights to reduce their intensity. And let's not forget dimmers.... But now we're getting really deep.
A good Director of Photography will combine techniques of all of the above.
Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Most modern office flourescents balance at 3200-3400 degress Kelvin. Your best look would be to white balance to the flourescents, and supplement with your 3200K light kit, and gel all windows which are allowing light into your scene with a combination ND/CTO correction gel. You do this like you're applying window tint, except temporarily with only soap and water used as the adhesive. ND (neutral density), probably a 0.9, will knock down your light level 3 stops to better balance the contrast ratio with your interior. The CTO will correct the blue daylight to 3200K (actually, slightly warmer) to match your flourescents and Tungsten lights. These gels are sold in rolls by expendable supply houses and run about $100/roll.
Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
I forgot. You can also just tape the gels up inside if you're not going to see the windows on camera. Or you can tape them outside real tight, if the office is on the ground floor.
Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Oh yeah, the ND comes in three strengths: 0.3, 0.6, 0.9. Each value of 0.3 represents one stop of light subtraction. Buy small sheets to test to see how dark you really need the window before you buy the rolls. And you can buy gel that's got the ND and the CTO in the same gel--not sure if that was clear--so you're only putting up one gel, not two layers.
JPatnaude
Well-known member
I havent' looked through all of the replies, and this may have been covered already so I apologize in advance.
I have this situation constantly. If you only have access to a smaller kit, there is a relatively cheap thing you can do- gel and scrim the windows. You probably need some ND85, a big roll of it, What you do is measure and cut the gel to fit the window. A small spray bottle with soapy (dishwashing soap ok) and a squeegy needed for next step. Spray a small amount of the soapy water on the window, apply the film/ND85 and squeegy over the top to smooth. It should stick like it was meant to be there.
Depending on the time of day, angle of the sun, etc., you can plan on the window providing your key light. The "85" is CTO basically, and will balance the sun to tungsten. The ND will give you 2 to 3 or more stops (depending on the ND level yyou buy), and then fill-light with your kit.
There's also a product I love called "Roscoe Scrim." It's a black net material that you tape to the windows and it gives you 2-3 stops as well.
Jeff Patnaude:beer:
I have this situation constantly. If you only have access to a smaller kit, there is a relatively cheap thing you can do- gel and scrim the windows. You probably need some ND85, a big roll of it, What you do is measure and cut the gel to fit the window. A small spray bottle with soapy (dishwashing soap ok) and a squeegy needed for next step. Spray a small amount of the soapy water on the window, apply the film/ND85 and squeegy over the top to smooth. It should stick like it was meant to be there.
Depending on the time of day, angle of the sun, etc., you can plan on the window providing your key light. The "85" is CTO basically, and will balance the sun to tungsten. The ND will give you 2 to 3 or more stops (depending on the ND level yyou buy), and then fill-light with your kit.
There's also a product I love called "Roscoe Scrim." It's a black net material that you tape to the windows and it gives you 2-3 stops as well.
Jeff Patnaude:beer:
Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Duuhhh . . . THAT'S exactly what you need! ND85!!! Not the ND/CTO thing I said. Also the net idea can also be a real lifesaver. Do what JPatnaude said, and you'll be in great shape!JPatnaude said:
themanwhoknows
Member
budget
budget
you know i hear all of these great suggestions but the one problem is that im guessing that at your budget you might not be able to afford any of these CTO gels and stuff... You said the windows are big so im guessing they bring in strong light, so you should try and work around them and find some cheap gel (if you can) for your lighting kit. I think blacking out the windows is a bad idea, especially if their big, you're gonna need alot of material and you do have a tight budget...
Tell me how it works out.
budget
you know i hear all of these great suggestions but the one problem is that im guessing that at your budget you might not be able to afford any of these CTO gels and stuff... You said the windows are big so im guessing they bring in strong light, so you should try and work around them and find some cheap gel (if you can) for your lighting kit. I think blacking out the windows is a bad idea, especially if their big, you're gonna need alot of material and you do have a tight budget...
Tell me how it works out.