Indoor Shoot for Feature - Choosing the Audio Equipment

Steve House said:
Remember all business decisions boil down to making a fundamental choice between Make or Buy. Inferior sound is not an option if your film is to be accepted by an audience, period, end of story. To avoid it, you have to have certain skills present in your crew. You choice is to either buy them, in the form of hiring a sound person who will bring along (for a fee) his own sound kit, or to make them, in the form of training someone to use gear you own or rent, or yourself, into a comparable expert. There are no autopilots on the gear to where you can buy the right toys, tell a conscript what buttons to push and where to put the meter, and get good results from it. It just doesn't work like that.
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Agreed...

I suppose if I could boil one of my questions down to its essence, if anyone can give me an honest opinion.

Parameter A. Indoor Shoot + Oktava MK012 (and accessories) + Canon XHA1 (shooting HD)
Parameter B. No Mixer
Parameter C. Microphone is consistently within close / optimal range of the actors.
Parameter D. The XHA1 levels are ideally calibrated for the shoot to the best of the camera's ability.

Can adequate sound be achieved for a feature with this setup?
 
armadillo said:
Agreed...

I suppose if I could boil one of my questions down to its essence, if anyone can give me an honest opinion.

Parameter A. Indoor Shoot + Oktava MK012 (and accessories) + Canon XHA1 (shooting HD)
Parameter B. No Mixer
Parameter C. Microphone is consistently within close / optimal range of the actors.
Parameter D. The XHA1 levels are ideally calibrated for the shoot to the best of the camera's ability.

Can adequate sound be achieved for a feature with this setup?
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Should be technically possible but there will be a big luck factor in the results obtained as well. Was the environment quiet? Were you able to maintain the proper positioning of the mic by having someone who knows what they're doing and who knows the script as well as you and the actors do continually adjusting its placement to follow every subtle movement of the talent? Were the talent's deliveries consistent so they stayed within the range one fixed gain setting could cover properly? Sure in the heat of the moment no peaks hit clipping? Were you able to devote enough attention to sound monitoring, while operating the camera, that you heard the buzz of the air conditioner that kicked on in the middle of the scene in your headphones? Did the actors step on each other's lines - are you sure? Getting sound deserves the same single-minded focus that getting picture requires.
 
Well, I'd be concerned about levels. For this to have the best chance of working, you'll have to set your audio levels pretty conservatively. Given the quality of the camera's preamps and the fact that it records compressed audio, the sound quality will suffer when you need to boost it up to higher levels. Almost any decent 24-bit uncompressed recorder will give you significantly better sound quality.

(I won't go into mic distance and off-axis effects).

In the past, as I often say, great movies with great sound were made with lesser equipment than yours. Todays cheapo equipment in many ways surpasses great equipment of a few years ago. So it's certainly "possible" for your setup to be sufficient. The factor, in the past (as now) is skill. If you're convinced you've eliminated skill from the equation, then, sure, your equipment list can be used for passable sound. But I don't think many of us would agree that you can so easily (or, perhaps, ever) take skill out of the equation.

If you do go ahead this way, my suggestion of a 24-bit uncompressed recorder is the equipment upgrade I think will give you the biggest improvement at this point...
 
Steve House said:
Should be technically possible but there will be a big luck factor in the results obtained as well. Was the environment quiet? Were you able to maintain the proper positioning of the mic by having someone who knows what they're doing and who knows the script as well as you and the actors do continually adjusting its placement to follow every subtle movement of the talent? Were the talent's deliveries consistent so they stayed within the range one fixed gain setting could cover properly? Sure in the heat of the moment no peaks hit clipping? Were you able to devote enough attention to sound monitoring, while operating the camera, that you heard the buzz of the air conditioner that kicked on in the middle of the scene in your headphones? Did the actors step on each other's lines - are you sure? Getting sound deserves the same single-minded focus that getting picture requires.
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Thanks, good points and a good checklist.
 
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ullanta said:
Well, I'd be concerned about levels. For this to have the best chance of working, you'll have to set your audio levels pretty conservatively. Given the quality of the camera's preamps and the fact that it records compressed audio, the sound quality will suffer when you need to boost it up to higher levels. Almost any decent 24-bit uncompressed recorder will give you significantly better sound quality.

(I won't go into mic distance and off-axis effects).

In the past, as I often say, great movies with great sound were made with lesser equipment than yours. Todays cheapo equipment in many ways surpasses great equipment of a few years ago. So it's certainly "possible" for your setup to be sufficient. The factor, in the past (as now) is skill. If you're convinced you've eliminated skill from the equation, then, sure, your equipment list can be used for passable sound. But I don't think many of us would agree that you can so easily (or, perhaps, ever) take skill out of the equation.

If you do go ahead this way, my suggestion of a 24-bit uncompressed recorder is the equipment upgrade I think will give you the biggest improvement at this point...
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Thank you. Good advice and I'll look further into 24 bit recorders.
 
armadillo said:
- Can I do without the KSSM - I will rarely be camera mounting the microphone (if ever)
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No. I am sure you realize this by now but imo KSSM w/ softbands for the Oktava. Also, you can use it for other mics similar size I used it on my AT4073a for a while and no issue. Heavier and prob not ideal with a zepplin but still, Great SM. (also both Oktava and 4073a VERY sensitive mics the KSSM really great at absorbing handling/shock).

And to some other things in this very cool thread. I was EXACTLY like you and in a way still am Armadillo. In fact got nearly the exact same setup you posted for similar reason and had similar questions. I started out not being very passionate about sound, or in the sense I wasn't planning on becoming a professional sound mixer/recordist. My partner got the DVX tho, we needed some sound he had no more money lol. So I invested. AND - found I loved sound.

I won't be a professional sound mixer/boom/sound guy still, nor consider myself to be really, my real passions are writing, directing, acting - BUT - for some paid gigs, some indie films and my own been very fun and experience and I try my best to get the best sound possible. I've learned not to neglect sound also something many many many people do, peeps I've worked with I'd help some students out and heh I'd have to force my presence on them, they were so lazy in sound LIKE I USED TO BE. They thought "eh post would answer any problems." the cliche phrase "fix it in post" *chuckle* AND it's fun and rewarding to get shocking remarks on how great the sound is to them, esp how cheaply I can work, with really just simple technique and the right gear.

Anyways - I do NOT consider myself near an expert like many regulars here like Wabbit, Oleg, Sane, Steve, etc. I sounded a lot like Armidllo a few years ago. My suggestions, invest in another mic, for exteriors. I like the 4073a, Rode as well fairly good. And the gear that goes with another mic… but also –

CABLES – don’t skimp, balanced canare neutrik connects, too bad Mattin doesn’t make his special custome ones anymore. But I own tons of canare, you probably want different lengths, 50 ft. and 25ft. most popular. I have a 1.5 ft for camera mounted (never used for film stuff but occasionally corporate/ENG stuff will) and a almost 15 ft. roughly, a little less, got it custom, for when I solo sound guy and boom too (I’m certainly not the greatest here) or give to a boom, factored in my height and boom reach and where my mixer/preamp would be attached. BUT – starting out definitely one cable will work. I have crazy colors another reason I like canare lol red, blue, green, purple. I own no black Rofl.

MIXERS/PREAMPS - I do corporate/info docu stuff and some sport/dance competitions with a friend, usually two man crew sometimes one. I focus on sound primarily far as the technical aspects go. When money was tight, I got a SD MM-1. Basically wasn't needing two channels (and on our films the same) YET, so wanted a preamp and stop feeding the camera. Also for Boom it's sweet. Quality wise it's as good as anything SD, like Mixpre just NOT A MIXER... (ONLY real complaint with the MM-1 is the steeped level controls, I like to have the slightest control over levels and now of course the channels but can't fault it for that again it's NOT a mixer but a simple preamp with simple options)

In retro I wish I got a MixPre instead, double the price retail and features, and often on ebay for a little less. Even tho I didn't have the money, well, would have saved some in the end. (apply for a new credit card =D And with MixPre rofl two channel controls heh monitoring options are lacking, and - well wish I got a SD 302 to begin with and be done with it total future proof for me and most people, Id have paid it off by now too rofl saved money in the end, oh well that was a while ago lesson learned =D (although not that either MM-1 or MixPre can't use WITH a 302 OR sell for very good value they hold their price well (MixPre especially) and can be a rent shop yourself so neither a total waste =D (I only mention SD because I love them, I am an SD whore fine =) Definitely other good mixers out there similar price range.

Why I rant - besides always ranting, KNOW what you'd need it for and THINK of the future (hard when new and money's tight). Just a MM-1 Preamp is worth it imo, the quality heh Id never want to plug in my mics directly into the camera pres never ever nowaday and wish I had that mentality in the past. And if can afford better great. Even if just shooting something for youtube who knows where else may go, future proof it. Nice to have the option to “up rez” as a DP may say, why if you could shoot on RED, why shoot 2k when you got 4k. (Besides certain reasons like size/time/money) – or if shot 35 and went to TV before HD, heh it’s now ready for HD. And even Blu-ray. Where as 16 or a low end HD camera, well - *migrane*

You can STILL get decent and good quality sound without a mixer/pre, I mean technique is huge, knowing what you're doing, knowing how sound works - choosing the right locations, you really should check out this DVD:

DVD: Sound for Film and Television

Wish I got that starting out. And perfect on every level (beyond guru status) esp someone not planning on focusing on sound.
 
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Ugh, so expensive! DVD's should be $19.99! All right, I'll get it BECAUSE I have faith in this forum and the DVXuser community... But if it doesn't live up to all the glowing reviews, I am writing a SCAAAAAAAATHING review!

Thanks for the post, Junk. Your advice is practical and I can relate to a great deal of what you're saying.
 
armadillo said:
Ugh, so expensive! DVD's should be $19.99! All right, I'll get it BECAUSE I have faith in this forum and the DVXuser community... But if it doesn't live up to all the glowing reviews, I am writing a SCAAAAAAAATHING review!

Thanks for the post, Junk. Your advice is practical and I can relate to a great deal of what you're saying.
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The DVXuser Audio DVD is worth every penny.
 
Okay. I have received the DVD and I do have to say that my review of it is quite positive. Some of it I knew, a bit of it I didn't - but what it did succeed in most of all is convincing me to finally believe the stuff I knew but didn't want to accept.

I will say, however, that I feel VERY stupid for paying for express shipping to get it quickly. It took 3 weeks.

So I gladly welcome those $5-10 back... But otherwise, good product guys. And you did even find a way to make technical stuff interesting and entertaining.
 
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