Importing 24PA into FCP from a Firestore

T

turbo2ltr

Active member
I've been reading all the posts about properly importing 24pa with the advanced pulldown removal checked when capturing from tape. But what about when you aren't capturing DV from tape, you are pulling the clips off a mounted firestore? (i.e. dragging the actual files over). How do you do the advanced pulldown removal then?

Also, what is the best "DV Format" setting in the firestore? Raw DV? Or the quicktime 24p? I didn't see anything in the FS manual saying it could remove the advanced pulldown. (which would be neat if it did)

Thanks,
Mike
 
I hope someone comes forth with some knowledge on this. I'd like to use the firestore on a project that is coming up very soon, but don't know if the footage will import properly.
 
I don't have firestore but if you bring in a clip into FCP you can go to Tools -> Remove Advanced pulldown. Whether there are additional flags and if they're saved in the firestore woudl be the question.
Saving as Raw DV format would be best since there's no -recompression and conversion to another codec.
Best bet for all of this is to run a few tests.
 
Scottdvx100 said:
I don't have firestore but if you bring in a clip into FCP you can go to Tools -> Remove Advanced pulldown. Whether there are additional flags and if they're saved in the firestore woudl be the question.
Saving as Raw DV format would be best since there's no -recompression and conversion to another codec.
Best bet for all of this is to run a few tests.
Click to expand...
Ok, I tried the following test. I captured 24pa via FireWire from the DVX directly into iMovie 5 on my imac. I then dragged the file out of iMovie onto the desktop, then used FCP 4.5 to import the file. When I look at the file attributes (select file in browser then edit menu->item properties->format) it says the video rate is 29.97. So now seems like the time to Remove Advanced pulldown. With file selected in the browser I go to tools menu->Remove Advance Pulldown. I always get the error "Unable to find clips with Advance Pulldown to Process. I don't have access to a FireStore at the moment, but I suspect I would get the same result.
 
No joy on importing from the FireStore and doing an advanced pulldown. :-(

This time I captured 24pa via FireWire from the DVX onto the FireStore. I then connected the FS to my Mac and used FCP 4.5 to import the file. When I look at the file attributes (select file in browser then edit menu->item properties->format) it says the video rate is 29.97. With file selected in the browser I go to tools menu->Remove Advance Pulldown. I always get the error "Unable to find clips with Advance Pulldown to Process.

Next step is to try and contact the FireStore folks to see why this won't work. I'm beginning to think I will just have to shoot in 24p Normal and edit on a 29.97 timeline.
 
I think contacting Firestore is probably a good move.

If they can't help, then you could try Nattress filters

http://www.nattress.com/

which might be able to do it for you. Graham Nattress is a great guy with very affordable filters (and free lifetime upgrades!).
 
Well your footage is 24pa and you just need the pulldown removed.

Evidently FCP requires a flag to do it but you have a couple of other options if it can't. DVMaker ($100) should stil lbe available. Small app to remove/add pulldown, including advanced pulldown.
This was used for DVX before the editing software was updated.
I also have an applescript around I wrote that removes the pulldown if you have QT Pro.
 
This morning I was reading through the FS manual and came across the different file formats you can save to. Lo and behold, one of the formats is Quicktime 24P.

So this afternoon I shot some 24Pa anamorphic footage onto the FS, recorded as QT 24P. I then hooked the FS up to the iMac and imported into FCP. I checked the clip attributes after import (apple 9), and the frame rate was 23.98. I then created a 23.98 timeline and dragged clips onto the timeline and did some editing. Everything seemed to work. I will play with it a little more, but I think this is the way to go.

I did get a message after import that concerned me. It said "The following media clips are not optimized for FCP HD. It is highly recommended that you either recapture the media or use the Media Manager to create new copies of the files to improve their performance for multi-stream playback". So I went through the Media Manager conversion, but I couldn't tell any difference. The file attributes (apple 9) were the exact same as before the conversion.

at first I thought this might be a show stopper, but the clips seem to work fine on the 23.98 timeline. Also, I got the same message on some clips I captured from tape. I not sure what this error is all about, so if anyone has any clues, I'm open to input.
 
Notice may result from 1. Not being the exact DV size 2. not using a true DV codec 3. sequence not using the same DV codec. In these cases it may have to render or may not playback at full speed, which is why FCP is warning you.
 
Well, here's the latest in my FireStore saga... We shot last weekend at my
place and wanted to see if we imported direct from the FireStore if FCP
would do the 3:2 pulldown. That test was a bust. I got the same error
as when I brought the files through iMovie and then into FCP. I tried
making some phone calls to the FireStore vendor on Friday, but all I
got was voicemail.

So I decided to try the Quicktime 24P option on the FireStore.
We shot some 24Pa footage onto the FS,
recorded as QT 24p. I then hooked the FS up to the iMac and imported
into FCP. I checked the clip attributes, and the frame rate was 23.98.
I then created a 23.98 timeline and dragged clips onto the timeline and
did some editing. Everything seemed to work.

On the advice of a friend who's pretty savy in the tech arena, I'm still not convinced I'm out of the woods. In his words

"I would be weary of using the QT24 mode in the firestore until you know howit's capturing 24fps. Firewire is carrying video at 30 fps. So in that
QT24 mode, the firestore is doing a reverse pulldown to get it back to 24.
But is it doing a standard reverse pulldown? Or does it know how to reverse
the advanced pulldown? If so you are going to lose some quality and you do
not want to shoot 24pa. That would be the question for the FS guys...if you
could get in touch with them..."

So that's where I stand...
 
Firewire is just data so it's not locked to 30fps but in the case of the DVX to Firestore everything woudl be passed as 29.97

If there's no options on the Firestore then I'd assume it only covered 24p footage and as suggested it may not even be doing that.
Didn't this come with a manual or info on their web site? Obviously you should call them and get the details.
 
We didn't end up using the Firestore on our 24pA project because the editing guru at B&H told us it wouldn't work correctly. He was right. Here is another thing to consider.

Noah Kadner writes (on DVinfo.net) that 23.98 is NOT the correct way to capture 24pA footage. Since the DVX records to tape at 29.97, FCP is meant to digitize at 29.97, and flags the unneeded frames and removes them IF YOU CAPTURE AT 29.97. If you capture at 23.98, FCP removes frames randomly to get to 23.98, thus resulting in incorrectly captured 24pA.

Noah expresses it much better than I in his article, but this was a crucial factor for us in not using the Firestore's 24p Quicktime format. I don't have Noah's link on me now, but will post it later if there is further interest.
 
Well to have 24 footage directly from the Firestorm would require pulldown removal of one sort or another in the device itself.
Regardign 23.98 capture- FCP does have a preset for advanced pulldown removal. not sure why a lot of people don't use it.
It's important for people to understand to use the correct settings ( it will be 29.97 capture with pulldown removal) but it will then appear in the bin as 23.98.
 
I haven't been able to get any response from the FireStore folks. A week ago I left voicemail on their tech support and sent them an email, but no response.

JMG100, thanks for the info. I would like to get that link from DVinfo if you get a chance.

I've pretty much decided not to shoot 24pA with this FireStore. Just too many unknowns, seems like a can of worms for me. For our project, 24p normal will be just fine. If I do get some info from the FireStore folks I'll pass it along.
 
Here's the latest from Focus on the FS4 related to this issue...

From: Support [mailto:support@focusinfo.com]
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 12:40 PM
To:
Subject: FS4 pulldown method

Hi Mike,
I found the right person who had the right answer for you. We actually have an engineer who can WRITE too..........


24P mode is dependent upon the camera’s output. The FS-4 doesn’t manipulate the DV footage provided by the camera; it applies a wrapper, extracts the audio and timecode, and notes the marked frames. It then generates either AVI TYPE2 24p or QUICKTIME 24p file; within these files are indices that point the to timecode, audio, and marked frames. The cameras provide 30 fps, but the content to be used is only 24 fps; the content to be used are those marked frames mentioned, previously.

The bottomline is: Does the camera support output 24P? If it does not, you can’t use the footage in a 24P timeline with quality considerations.

You could use a 30P camera and capture with the 24P file format settings but it will not work properly in the timeline. You will get jutter, or in this gentlemen’s terms: it will degrade the quality of the video and the video will become jumpy”.

Either 24p normal and 24p advanced pull-down is generated by the camera. The FS-4 detects the advanced pull-down flags in the DV stream and automatically generates the correct format. This is the reason we don’t have a menu setting. The enduser then only needs to set the camera to the appropriate mode and everything works.

Thanks,

Jim Olson
-----------------------------------

So that means we set the FS to record QT 24p, then it auto-detects 24p normal or advanced depending on our scene file setting, and we're good to go.

We tested it before on our own, and it did seem to work (i.e. the files on the FS were 23:98 when imported into FCP, and looked fine on a 23:98 timeline). We just weren't sure the FS was doing the right thing. Now we are.
 
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Maybe i'm off-topic, but i want to buy firestore (FS4 or FS4 Pro) to use it with dvx and FCP, and my big question is about 25p (Not 24p).

I saw at the Firestore site this:
On FS-4, files are recorded to disk as RawDV, AVI Type 1, AVI Type 2, AVI Type 2 24p, Matrox AVI, Canopus AVI, QuickTime or QuickTime 24p. The FS-4 Pro model also includes Pinnacle AVI and Avid DV-OMF support.

What about 25p? If i capture 25p (or 25pa) with my dvx and record to firestore asRawDV and then transfer to FCP (DV PAL 48Khz) should i be ok? Will i have the same results that i would have if i use this setup : dvx - 25p (or 25pa) - miniDV - FCP (DV PAL 48Khz)

THANKS A LOT IN ADVANCE and sorry if my english isn't so good.
 
This is an interesting thread, and I'm curious about the results- as I've considered getting a FS, as it would be a HUGE time saver ...

phx_falcon_a said:
When I look at the file attributes (select file in browser then edit menu->item properties->format) it says the video rate is 29.97. With file selected in the browser I go to tools menu->Remove Advance Pulldown. I always get the error "Unable to find clips with Advance Pulldown to Process.
Click to expand...

Have you tried Cinema Tools? I've used this to correctly flag a file when FCP has miss labeled a clip as 29.97 and it is really 23.98. (Cinema Tools is "Free" and came with FCP HD - you shouldn't have to buy any additional software)


phx_falcon_a said:
Firewire is carrying video at 30 fps.
Click to expand...

I believe that is misinformation - Firewire has nothing to do with frame rate. All firewire does is transfer data, just like USB. (Only Firewire is faster). When you transfer via firewire it doesn't care if you are transfering video, audio, a photoshop file, word document ... all it sees is a bunch of 1's and 0's - or data. So if your original file is at 30 fps, it will transfer the file exactly how it is - it does not do any conversion, pulldown, or the like.

JMG100 said:
If you capture at 23.98, FCP removes frames randomly to get to 23.98, thus resulting in incorrectly captured 24pA.
Click to expand...

As noted by others, if you use 23.98 Advanced pulldown removal it will capture the footage correctly. There is a sticky in this forum on how to make sure that FCP is setup to handle 24pa.


So, my big questions to all of you who have the FS- How have you liked it? Is it working how you thought? Or is all of this turing out to be a bigger trouble then you had anticipated? Would you recommend this product? (I tend to do a lot of long format productions- recording of events and the like. I would love to switch to a tapeless system, but I am concerned with the workflow and reliability. Thanks for your input.
 
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