IMDB Ethics
- Thread starter Sad Max
- Start date
SomewhereinLA
Well-known member
Well that's the problem my friend, in Los Angeles, Karma like a lot of people has been corrupted. My Father once said to me, "the biggest mistake I made raising you is to make you a honest man"... He was being sarcastic of course, but there is a lot of truth in it.
rook
Veteran
Blaine, The killer is blameless????
Come on, everything is useless out of context. That's just not fair.
Sad Max, As far as your paraphrase is concerned....yeah that's about right. But I do admit, when you phrase it like that it sounds pretty twisted.
I guess what I'm saying is if some one is in the position where they have no connections and can't get a job without more experience and can't get more experience without getting a job I don't blame them for an occasional lapse in truthfullness.
Im sure some of the greats have made this very lapse.
I got hosed a few years back when I hired a DP I was unfamiliar with. He showed me his rez and even watched "his" reel with me and talked about the shots I was seeing. I hired him and about an hour into day one it became obvious that I'd been had. The shoot was a mess and I was really pissed off at the time....
And yet, I still understand why he did it. True I wish he hadn't and I'd warn anyone away from the dink but I still understand and I don't really blame him. The most constructive thing for me was to take the responsibility and accept that I was too green to know the difference and if I had handled things better I would not have hired a lying dink-face of a fake DP.
I have seen now that this mind-set is not for everyone. Okay, I can dig that.
shall I clarify anything more?
Come on, everything is useless out of context. That's just not fair.
Sad Max, As far as your paraphrase is concerned....yeah that's about right. But I do admit, when you phrase it like that it sounds pretty twisted.
I guess what I'm saying is if some one is in the position where they have no connections and can't get a job without more experience and can't get more experience without getting a job I don't blame them for an occasional lapse in truthfullness.
Im sure some of the greats have made this very lapse.
I got hosed a few years back when I hired a DP I was unfamiliar with. He showed me his rez and even watched "his" reel with me and talked about the shots I was seeing. I hired him and about an hour into day one it became obvious that I'd been had. The shoot was a mess and I was really pissed off at the time....
And yet, I still understand why he did it. True I wish he hadn't and I'd warn anyone away from the dink but I still understand and I don't really blame him. The most constructive thing for me was to take the responsibility and accept that I was too green to know the difference and if I had handled things better I would not have hired a lying dink-face of a fake DP.
I have seen now that this mind-set is not for everyone. Okay, I can dig that.
shall I clarify anything more?
There's all sorts of unethical behavior, that one can look at and understand 'why' the person chose to perpetrate it, ie why did you rob that guy/I wanted his money or why did you lie and present someone else's work as your own/I wanted that job.
What I'm missing, is how understanding the why behind lying, or cheating, or perpetrating a rip-off (or some more serious offense) has anything to do with being any less disgusted by the behavior, just because you can discern the motive behind the disgusting behavior.
If someone showed you a reel and a resume, and falsely called it his own, what exactly were you supposed to have done, to find out at that point that he was a liar? It seems to me that the burden is on the interviewee to be honest, not upon the interviewer to assume that he's dishonest, and dig around to find out which is true. And yes, I *do* follow up on people's resume claims, when I'm hiring, and when time permits. But when time doesn't permit, that doesn't excuse someone for lying to me - and when I catch them, I'll make damn sure they don't get the chance to waste anyone else's time, in my professional circle. That DP who screwed up your shoot, basically stole from you: he stole time, he stole access to resources, he stole your opportunity to create the best possible work, which you could have done with a competent, honest craftsman. And all that theft was for his own selfish personal gain: so he could accumulate experience at your expense, and set himself up a little better, for his *next* rip-off job. Maybe if he'd broken into your house, and taken the value of your time and energy and resources, in the form of cash from your bedside table, you might look at the theft differently, but theft it was - not to mention the opportunity he thieved from some other individual, by lying his way into a position for which *they* might have been more competitive.
It's not about getting emotionally worked up, or vengeful; it's more like when you go camping, and in the morning you find a scorpion in your boot. You don't get excited, you don't get worked up, you don't get emotionally overwrought - you just kill it and get on with your morning.
You've indicated that you personally don't falsify your credits or experience, when competing for work, and the argument that you 'don't need to' doesn't hold water; no matter how good your resume, there's *always* something you could falsely add, to make it just that little bit better-looking. Unless you're simply concerned about the consequences of getting caught in a lie, it's implicit that there is some ethical impulse that prevents you from lying your head off. And - assuming that's the case - why should *you* be expected to behave ethically, if you're content to give a pass to anyone else out there (who may some day lie you out of a job) who wants to falsify their qualifications?
I'll admit that I'm sensitive on the subject; probably a consequence of working in an unforgiving environment where people who lie their way into jobs can do a lot of damage, both to other people and to the work at hand, and nobody I know appreciates being in the position of having to clean up the mess.
What I'm missing, is how understanding the why behind lying, or cheating, or perpetrating a rip-off (or some more serious offense) has anything to do with being any less disgusted by the behavior, just because you can discern the motive behind the disgusting behavior.
If someone showed you a reel and a resume, and falsely called it his own, what exactly were you supposed to have done, to find out at that point that he was a liar? It seems to me that the burden is on the interviewee to be honest, not upon the interviewer to assume that he's dishonest, and dig around to find out which is true. And yes, I *do* follow up on people's resume claims, when I'm hiring, and when time permits. But when time doesn't permit, that doesn't excuse someone for lying to me - and when I catch them, I'll make damn sure they don't get the chance to waste anyone else's time, in my professional circle. That DP who screwed up your shoot, basically stole from you: he stole time, he stole access to resources, he stole your opportunity to create the best possible work, which you could have done with a competent, honest craftsman. And all that theft was for his own selfish personal gain: so he could accumulate experience at your expense, and set himself up a little better, for his *next* rip-off job. Maybe if he'd broken into your house, and taken the value of your time and energy and resources, in the form of cash from your bedside table, you might look at the theft differently, but theft it was - not to mention the opportunity he thieved from some other individual, by lying his way into a position for which *they* might have been more competitive.
It's not about getting emotionally worked up, or vengeful; it's more like when you go camping, and in the morning you find a scorpion in your boot. You don't get excited, you don't get worked up, you don't get emotionally overwrought - you just kill it and get on with your morning.
You've indicated that you personally don't falsify your credits or experience, when competing for work, and the argument that you 'don't need to' doesn't hold water; no matter how good your resume, there's *always* something you could falsely add, to make it just that little bit better-looking. Unless you're simply concerned about the consequences of getting caught in a lie, it's implicit that there is some ethical impulse that prevents you from lying your head off. And - assuming that's the case - why should *you* be expected to behave ethically, if you're content to give a pass to anyone else out there (who may some day lie you out of a job) who wants to falsify their qualifications?
I'll admit that I'm sensitive on the subject; probably a consequence of working in an unforgiving environment where people who lie their way into jobs can do a lot of damage, both to other people and to the work at hand, and nobody I know appreciates being in the position of having to clean up the mess.
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rook
Veteran
Why do I feel like I need to prove that I don't lie on my resume just because I don't get bent into a fuss over people who do?
That is an offensive logic in my opinion. I also don't have a problem with people who do drugs, Play golf, have abortions, Ggo to church, are gay, eat meat or steal from "evil" corporations. That doesn't I mean I partake in those activities either.
It would be equally absurd for me to imply that you "protest too much" and may have something to hide.
If that's the game you want to play then you and Blaine can private message each other all night with your "rooks a liar scenarios" but please stop being so childish about my reputation on this forum. It's inaccurate and hurtful.
When I said I don't need to lie on my resume. I'm serious. It's not that I have an intimidating rez, I've already stated I don't. I work consistently for the same circle of people and new jobs always come out from connections to those people. If I added "Saving Private Ryan" to my resume it would be useless to me.
And on top of that guys, I don't like to lie cause I don't like the way it makes me feel.
I don't have to rat out other people that do things that I don't in order to prove my honesty. And if you do. Then fine. Like I said, knock yourself out. Go wild.
But can you do me one favour? Until I actually do something wrong, can you leave me out of it?
Does this feel a little like MaCarthism to anyone else? I don't condem the commies and sell them out, so I must be one too?
Rent "Good Night and Good Luck". And for clarifications guys, NO, I don't list that film on my resume.
-rook
That is an offensive logic in my opinion. I also don't have a problem with people who do drugs, Play golf, have abortions, Ggo to church, are gay, eat meat or steal from "evil" corporations. That doesn't I mean I partake in those activities either.
It would be equally absurd for me to imply that you "protest too much" and may have something to hide.
If that's the game you want to play then you and Blaine can private message each other all night with your "rooks a liar scenarios" but please stop being so childish about my reputation on this forum. It's inaccurate and hurtful.
When I said I don't need to lie on my resume. I'm serious. It's not that I have an intimidating rez, I've already stated I don't. I work consistently for the same circle of people and new jobs always come out from connections to those people. If I added "Saving Private Ryan" to my resume it would be useless to me.
And on top of that guys, I don't like to lie cause I don't like the way it makes me feel.
I don't have to rat out other people that do things that I don't in order to prove my honesty. And if you do. Then fine. Like I said, knock yourself out. Go wild.
But can you do me one favour? Until I actually do something wrong, can you leave me out of it?
Does this feel a little like MaCarthism to anyone else? I don't condem the commies and sell them out, so I must be one too?
Rent "Good Night and Good Luck". And for clarifications guys, NO, I don't list that film on my resume.
-rook
You're misinterpreting what's written, there.
I *never* said that I believe you lie on your resume; I said that it's baffling as to why you *don't* if you have no ethical objection to the practice, and see no harm in it (although it seems like you've been harmed by the practice yourself, for example, by the phony-ass DP who wrecked that project of yours). Although you covered that above; your resume isn't really a tool that gets you work.
As for 'protesting too much,' like I said, I have paystubs, plus my MPH&W/Contract Services records, to back up all of the credits I list, in the unlikely event I should have a reason to provide a paper-trail. Since the people I work with - for the most part - share my perspective, I'd be darned stupid to falsify my credits (look what happened to Eugenio Zanetti, who only got for-sure-caught-at-it, once...)
I absolutely am not aiming to hurt you or tarnish your reputation; this is an argument over ethical standards and practices, not a bash-fest aimed at anyone here, at all.
It's not about 'ratting out' other people to 'prove my honesty.' It's about the conviction that communication based upon truth is better than communication based upon lies, that you deserve to know what the *real* experience and qualifications are, of a person whom you're going to bring into your fold and give a place to work (and a paycheck), and that every last member of a professional community is adversely affected, when liars are tolerated (which is the same as encouraged) while they screw over honest people with real qualifications, as well as screwing over producers and investors who deserve to get what they are led to believe they are paying for, when it comes to the people they are paying.
I want to stress again, that I'm not accusing you of the damned unethical behavior we're talking about; I'm just dumbstruck and baffled as to how someone - particularly someone who doesn't perpetrate the fraud and lies, himself, *and* has suffered losses thanks to a lying fraudster - finds ground upon which to defend anyone's damned unethical behavior, particularly after they have suffered from someone doing it to them, themselves. This isn't eating meat or playing golf or being gay, this is deliberate lying and fraud that really hurts other people, either by unfairly screwing them out of work for which they are qualified, and have invested the time and effort to deserve a shot at, or by misleading them into taking on someone who doesn't have the chops that they falsely claimed they did, to contribute to a project that costs money out the hiring party's pocket.
I *never* said that I believe you lie on your resume; I said that it's baffling as to why you *don't* if you have no ethical objection to the practice, and see no harm in it (although it seems like you've been harmed by the practice yourself, for example, by the phony-ass DP who wrecked that project of yours). Although you covered that above; your resume isn't really a tool that gets you work.
As for 'protesting too much,' like I said, I have paystubs, plus my MPH&W/Contract Services records, to back up all of the credits I list, in the unlikely event I should have a reason to provide a paper-trail. Since the people I work with - for the most part - share my perspective, I'd be darned stupid to falsify my credits (look what happened to Eugenio Zanetti, who only got for-sure-caught-at-it, once...)
I absolutely am not aiming to hurt you or tarnish your reputation; this is an argument over ethical standards and practices, not a bash-fest aimed at anyone here, at all.
It's not about 'ratting out' other people to 'prove my honesty.' It's about the conviction that communication based upon truth is better than communication based upon lies, that you deserve to know what the *real* experience and qualifications are, of a person whom you're going to bring into your fold and give a place to work (and a paycheck), and that every last member of a professional community is adversely affected, when liars are tolerated (which is the same as encouraged) while they screw over honest people with real qualifications, as well as screwing over producers and investors who deserve to get what they are led to believe they are paying for, when it comes to the people they are paying.
I want to stress again, that I'm not accusing you of the damned unethical behavior we're talking about; I'm just dumbstruck and baffled as to how someone - particularly someone who doesn't perpetrate the fraud and lies, himself, *and* has suffered losses thanks to a lying fraudster - finds ground upon which to defend anyone's damned unethical behavior, particularly after they have suffered from someone doing it to them, themselves. This isn't eating meat or playing golf or being gay, this is deliberate lying and fraud that really hurts other people, either by unfairly screwing them out of work for which they are qualified, and have invested the time and effort to deserve a shot at, or by misleading them into taking on someone who doesn't have the chops that they falsely claimed they did, to contribute to a project that costs money out the hiring party's pocket.
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I think we're both in the real world. Rook feels that the real world includes some particular number of liars, frauds, and cheats, who should be tolerated, and I feel that the real world includes some particular number of liars, frauds, and cheats, who should *not* be tolerated.
Yea i guess it boils down to wanting to be a cop or a filmmaker, nothing wrong with either, but in the end things have a way of sorting them self's out just fine. If you got no talent are a lying sack of ****, you wont be around for long. If someone cant see a LSS a mile away neither will he. Thats just life, best to deal with it and move on.
rook
Veteran
I agree with what HVX2006 has said. Sagely advice.
Sad Max, obviously we will not agree. In fact, you illustrated that quite eloquently when you mentioned that you felt tolerance and encouragment were the same thing.
Wow, do I ever disagree with that notion.
I still disagree with your perspective wholeheartedly but in there's enough room in my world for both of our ideologies. And I'm glad both can exist. So, as I said before, knock yourself out with whatever blows your hair back. Tell on liars to your hearts content if that's what you need. Best of luck to you, in that.
But while you are at it, you might want to find time to look up the meanings of the words "tolerance" and "encouragement".
bigups,
rook
P.S. Thanks for mentioning that you were not out to tarnish my rep. I appreciate that clarification.
Sad Max, obviously we will not agree. In fact, you illustrated that quite eloquently when you mentioned that you felt tolerance and encouragment were the same thing.
Wow, do I ever disagree with that notion.
I still disagree with your perspective wholeheartedly but in there's enough room in my world for both of our ideologies. And I'm glad both can exist. So, as I said before, knock yourself out with whatever blows your hair back. Tell on liars to your hearts content if that's what you need. Best of luck to you, in that.
But while you are at it, you might want to find time to look up the meanings of the words "tolerance" and "encouragement".
bigups,
rook
P.S. Thanks for mentioning that you were not out to tarnish my rep. I appreciate that clarification.
Tolerating bad behavior, letting the person gain from it, encourages them to do it again - doing harm to others, in the process (otherwise, I wouldn't give a damn, any more than you do). An endless cycle, unless it's broken by there being consequences for that bad behavior. It's not about what blows my hair back (or floats my boat, creams my twinkies, and gets my nipples hard); it's about making a very small effort to help improve the integrity of a resource that's personally useful to me, and my fellow professionals - pure self-interest.
I think we operate in different professional environments; what is important in mine, is not in yours, and vice-versa. I'm fine with that, too.
I think we operate in different professional environments; what is important in mine, is not in yours, and vice-versa. I'm fine with that, too.
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