Ideal length of a slider

[ggrantly]

A few thoughts:

If I want to use a slider, it is because it is easy and quick and own a 36" Kessler which nets me about 28-30 inches of travel. I have found that to be enough unless I have a particular need. That is the beauty of a slider; quick and easy. As soon as you add length, it becomes more problematic. I shoot with a good quality handycam and a smallish fluid head on the carriage adding up to about 8lbs of load. Unless I use my Kessler K-Pod and Hercules head, I use a tripod on one end and a light stand on the other. On a lighter tripod, I am just not happy with a single point mount. Kessler does make some nice larger slider options for both length, weight carrying ability, and motion control.

Although this solution is a bit out of fashion, I have the flexible track and track wheels for my K-Pod and it really does work well on flat surfaces and gives so many options for tailored camera movement almost like a huge slider with curved track. The K-Pod is a heavy proposition, but I like that as it makes things a lot smoother. Mass can be a good thing.

When folks discuss speed-rail, that is actually just a system of fittings to capture standard pipe sizes. Holeander is the most well known brand and can be purchased at most industrial supply house like Grainger. Any video company marketing thier own is just buying the fittings and re-branding them at a markup.

Pipe is sized from the inside diameter and the most common pipe sizes to use are:

1" with an OD of 1.375"
1.25" with and OD of 1.625"
1.5" with an OD of 1.9"
2.0" with an OD of 2.38

1.25" is the most common in industry rail work and is pretty typical for video use, as is the use of aluminum over steel.

Pipe can be purchased in different thicknesses denoted by "schedule". Sch40 being "standard" and both lighter sch20 and and heavy sch80 being available. To achieve the different schedules, the inside diameter varies somewhat, so a 1" sch80 pipe will have an inside diameter somewhat less than 1" sch40. The outside diameter remains the same for a given pipe size.

Tubing be contrast, is measured on the outside diameter. For example 1" tubing is 1" in diameter. So you always need to make the distinction between tube and pipe and how they are measured.

I have some lengths of 1.25" sch40 aluminum pipe for rail and it is ideal IMHO. I'd rather add support than hump the extra heavy sch80 pipe around, and sch80 aluminum pipe is worth a pretty premium to buy. When linking pipe together for a longer run, I have some solid aluminum round stock that is turned down to fit the inside diameter of the pipe. These are about 2ft long and have holes for bolts and is really solid when assembled. If you are intending to use these interior sleeves, make sure you purchase seamless pipe. Seamed pipe has a nasty little weld bead on the interior which will interfere with your sleeves.

Hey, I owned a machine shop in a former life.

G

 

[Retrospective]

Once you're past 4' you're getting into Dana range. The issue being anything past 4' starts to be a bother to pack. So I figure if I'm going to have the hassle of packing long rails, I might as well have a Dana, which I do (well, not an actual Dana. I made my own).

I use a 3' slider and if that's not enough, then I use the Dana. Yes, it means big pipes and big stands, but I find it worth it. Well, sorta. I've been thinking about making 4' rails for the Dana that butt two together to make a 8' rail. Then the rail packing issue goes away. But I fabricate my stuff, so that solution isn't for everyone. Maybe consider using 6' rails for a Dana instead of 8' or 10'.

Yeah thats what I want to know from people. Im aware the answer will differ from person to person but maybe you have a point that I haven't thought about.

Is anything more than 4' becomes a hassle? I mean I can always rent a Dana dolly but Im looking for something I can bring with me in the car when I need it that's easy and compact enough to setup like a heavy duty slider with a reasonable and usable length.

 

[Retrospective]

Once you're past 4' you're getting into Dana range. The issue being anything past 4' starts to be a bother to pack. So I figure if I'm going to have the hassle of packing long rails, I might as well have a Dana, which I do (well, not an actual Dana. I made my own).

I use a 3' slider and if that's not enough, then I use the Dana. Yes, it means big pipes and big stands, but I find it worth it. Well, sorta. I've been thinking about making 4' rails for the Dana that butt two together to make a 8' rail. Then the rail packing issue goes away. But I fabricate my stuff, so that solution isn't for everyone. Maybe consider using 6' rails for a Dana instead of 8' or 10'.

The nice thing about the MYT, that the Retrospective is considering, is being able to remove the 100mm half ball bracket and place the camera directly on the slider for ultra low to the ground angles.


But other than that, I am with, and find the flexibility of the Dana to be far more conducive to Producer's and aDirector's needs. But perhaps the limits of a slider can prevent unrealistic requests. haha.


BTW, how smooth is the transition between mated 4ft rods? I haven't tried those out yet, but think that would be amazing to have.

You're making some great points. I've been seriously considering a Dana dolly or even the Camera Goat based on flexibility. I wanted to see how usable a slider would be compared to a Dana dolly. Compactness VS flexibility.

 

[Retrospective]

Sorry just discovered I can reply to multiple threads....

Once you're past 4' you're getting into Dana range. The issue being anything past 4' starts to be a bother to pack. So I figure if I'm going to have the hassle of packing long rails, I might as well have a Dana, which I do (well, not an actual Dana. I made my own).

I use a 3' slider and if that's not enough, then I use the Dana. Yes, it means big pipes and big stands, but I find it worth it. Well, sorta. I've been thinking about making 4' rails for the Dana that butt two together to make a 8' rail. Then the rail packing issue goes away. But I fabricate my stuff, so that solution isn't for everyone. Maybe consider using 6' rails for a Dana instead of 8' or 10'.

That's a great point. Perhaps anything past 4' then I might as well consider Dana dolly like solution.

I have the 42" Rhino Slider and the 24". I only use the 24" because I can put it on a tripod, grab the whole thing and move it myself.
The 42" requires two tripods and two people to move it once assembled. PITA. I never use it.

I find that my 24" Rhino very limited even though I love how compact it is. I was going to buy the 42" but my camera kit(varies form ~18 lbs to ~23 lbs) is already heavy on the 24" as I can see it "bend" which is disappointing.

What weight of camera/head are you intending on using? How much help do you get when you shoot? How fast do you need to move? How long are your shots?

In general, I don't want to be on a slider on anything over a 3ft move. There are better options.

My camera kit is around ~23 lbs max + ~3 lbs head . Yeah quite heavy so I find most budget sliders do bend with it even if my camera is way under the limit.

Half the time I don't get help so Im looking for something I can personally setup around ~5 minutes or so. That's why a slider seems attractive.

Those are good questions. They prompt me to ask if Retrospective is looking for a dolly, not a slider. What I mean is that generally, a slider is not used to reposition the camera to re-frame a shot, but a dolly often is.

Retro, you say you want more movement, but you also want something simple and easy to set up. I'm poking you here a bit to see if you're making a decision that will disappoint you. Will 4 or 6' slider achieve your goals or are you holding yourself back for the sake of ease of setup? I'm not expecting you to answer that. It's just a prod to check that you're not giving something up for the sake of convenience. I expect you've spent a lot of time thinking about this, so I'll shut up now.

4' to 6' would be the ideal length. I think anything longer is Dana dolly territory already like what you're saying. I want to know if anyone else shares that opinion.

I'm on my second MYT Works(smashed the carriage on my original late last summer and the repair was not going to be anywhere near cost effective vs. buying a new one with their trade-in program). I've gotten the 4' Large each time, because that's as big as will fit in a Pelican 1750 gun case. It's a pretty good length for most moves and it's all self contained. Never been a huge fan of the Dana Dolly. I do have a much larger and heavier duty setup with the Cam Tram and Track in the Box track system that is 9' that I use on big set-ups. The 4' MYT Works is really a pretty good quick and nimble system that can work for quick b-roll or long sit-down interviews. Not cheap, but well made. The new addition of the opposing magnets in the carriage and end stops to prevent "bottoming out" at each end was pretty brilliant.

I'm looking at the MYT Works too, what sort of work do you do with the 4' MYT Works slider? Do you find that it's sufficient enough or still need to hire a track or skater dolly? I'm not a fan of track dolly since I usually work alone or with 1 assistant.

 

[Retrospective]

Do you define a slider as a single tripod and a dana as two tripods?

As you do narrative an pop vid can one assume you mainly film humans (not ants or buildings which require a longer or shorter move!)

Personally I dont think there is an answer or the answer is 'as long as your vehicle'..

I have a 2.4m long van and have a dana style with 2.38 poles which gives me the max slide without making a complex build.

Having a dana style I can use shorter poles too in a small room.

On a ronford syle box slider (myt ubangi etc) you can do 3or4 feet using a single tripod and end monopods. Id be unlikely to use just a tripod with anything bigger than a naked DSLR. You can do some calcs as to which camera will tip over at what point on a tripod only slider.

I would not do Moco on a human - one is better operating to thier moves (in general)

I think 3 feet can do a head, 6 feet is the minimum for a body or two setups for the price of one.

With my camera setup, I would need to use 2 tripod or 2 sticks to support it. 6 ft length is the max I can carry on my vehicle.

You just made me realize that I should have ask "For those who owns 4 ft+ slider, is it sufficient enough for most of your narrative work without needing a 6 ft + dana dolly like setup?" Yeah probably no absolute answer!

My smallest is a 3ft pocket dolly with parallax.
Once you add a fluid head, tripod and all the fixings the weight starts to add up.
I also own a Dana Dolly kit, which can sit on the ground, apple boxes, or on low boy stands.
I can also mount my Porta Jib Traveler for compound moves if needed.
I keep speedrail in 4ft, 6ft, and 8ft lengths. For longer lengths you will want to use schedule 80 speedrail to avoid flexing.
I keep both in my van so transport is a non issue.
Both units have their pluses and minuses.
The Pocket Dolly is easier to setup, but limited in the amount of weight it can hold, as well as the move length you can achieve.
Both can be setup by a single operator if needed.

You have the ideal setup I would want, if only I had a van where I can jammed pack everything without having to plan what equipment is needed for today's shoot so I can fit it in my car.

Trying to see which setup would take more space in my car(Subaru Crosstrek). 4 ft or 6 ft heavy duty slider VS a dana dolly setup plus a variety of pipes.

 

[morgan_moore]

Having a think about this.

Joining tubes is expensive.

Or forget joining systems that are not expensive.

Have a think about that statement. Be single pipe.. or expensive!

My chummo has a Solid Grip Systems Slider - it has three bits like 3, 4 and 5 feet, it makes slider making various combinations from 3 to 12 feet long (3 + 4 + 5) its pretty cool but cost $5k plus. This is what you want if you only have a car.

Us dana owners are in for 1/5 of the price but have vans with a load space in the 8ft region. And can get shorter pipes or even cut custom pipes on location. But the Solid Grip is tidier, smaller and generally better.. and $5k plus. (http://www.solidgripsystems.eu/products2/twindolly/)

As for the ideal length, 3ft can deliver with the subject at a table fiddling with a phone (for example) where as 12ft (track) can get a bit short if a singer is walking through a bar - both shots ive done.

I think the key is to always be solid and never use a sh_it slider in front of a director.

You have a car so will be a ronford (3 or 4 feet) or a solid grip systems (3 ->12 feet) having a dana is not going to stash in a car without poking you (fatally) when you crash.

If your director wants longer than the above.. hire a grip with van, slider selection and some track. You are not going to look slick setting up longer than 4ft by yourself anyway.

 

[dcoughla]

Well, sorta. I've been thinking about making 4' rails for the Dana that butt two together to make a 8' rail. Then the rail packing issue goes away. But I fabricate my stuff, so that solution isn't for everyone.

For the masses, Dana sells portable speed rail. Definitely more expensive than DIY (provided you have precision machining capabilities) but it works.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...1E9C9ZyUJHzQ3pCP9N0YFjqK-5xx3CMcaAonpEALw_wcB

 

[Run&Gun]

I'm looking at the MYT Works too, what sort of work do you do with the 4' MYT Works slider? Do you find that it's sufficient enough or still need to hire a track or skater dolly? I'm not a fan of track dolly since I usually work alone or with 1 assistant.

I originally bought it mostly for b-roll, because I do have a larger, longer and heavier duty slider/dolly system, but wanted something to be quick and nimble, and it fit the bill being all self contained and being able to carry a pretty heavy payload(150lbs). But I have been using it more(mostly) for interviews, now, since people have more or less started using gimbals and DSLR's/mirrorless shooting in slow-mo for "slider style" b-roll of just a few years ago. 4 feet is sufficient for most b-roll and interviews. There have been times I would have liked to have had a little more on the sliding wide shot for interviews, but 8 or 9 out of 10 times, it's fine. And for interviews most of the time, I have two 100mm ball adapters and put it on two tripods.

 

[rob norton]

For the masses, Dana sells portable speed rail. Definitely more expensive than DIY (provided you have precision machining capabilities) but it works.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...1E9C9ZyUJHzQ3pCP9N0YFjqK-5xx3CMcaAonpEALw_wcB

Man that is expensive! Joining pipe is still one of the only ways for longer runs.

People improvise all the time but years ago I saw someone use 2x metal barriers like the ones used to direct long lines at stadiums as track. I want to find a naturally occurring (handrail, PVC pipes etc) really long track and work it in as a shot for something.

 

[ggrantly]

I can rig a 20 ft run using aluminum track on either the ground or on stands. I find it to be quite a chore in total between coupling the pipe, wrangling the fittings and then either wedging if on the ground or wrangling it onto stands. Makes me feel like a human pack mule. Then you get to undo the whole thing as soon as you are finished. Using some nice dolly trucks on a K-Pod, I can trow out a 50ft roll of flex track, kick it into submission and shoot. Only one side needs to be accurate to the intended run since one of the dolly trucks has an idler arm for one leg of the tripod. Better to do a good job on this, but it need not be perfect at all. Want a little curved movement during the shot, no problem. It does take some practice to be smooth and a dedicated "pusher" is nice, but not essential. The entire length of flexy track fits in a smallish bag. I'm already bringing a tripod and some camera rigging so that work is the same as using any track system, but I don't have to rig up a carriage or bring it either. Outdoors, you easily use this on any pavement or firm mowed lawn. Off hard surfaces, well it doesn't work at all, so that is a drawback. When its over, I just coil up the flexy track like a heavy garden hose. No special storage needed For me, it is a quick and very acceptable way to do longer movements compared to the hassle of rigging rail. YMMV. G