I want to do professional sound.

V

Victor Nhat Nguyen

Well-known member
With everyone mostly focusing on producing great images, they forget about sound. I have seen many, many new filmmakers that forget that sound is half of their image. So I have decided that sound is something that I want to expertise in. Now this is a broad question so I was just wondering what resources can help me get the basics and then I will ask more about the specific question. Is sound for film and television still wort it? the images I saw look kinda outdated. And is there a way that I can get ship a dvd or is it downloadable only? btw I know that sound is mostly just getting the mic as close as possible, please don't start another long discussion about that.
 
The most important thing with sound is the physics behind it. You really need to understand what sound is.

The best resource I ever had for the groundwork is a VERY dull book - really meant for studios and PA - but packed full of the physics and applications.

The Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook - [h=1]Sound Reinforcement Handbook (Revised)) By Davis, Gary (Author)[/h]It's not that up to date - but the important thing about this book is that if you read it carefully, you will find the content critical so you can apply it to video work, PA work in small and large venues and studios.

Equipment changes all the time - sound doesn't. I've not seen much else that isn't very basic. If you wish to learn about stereo techniques at a deeper level, the European quality mic company DPA have what they call a microphone university on line - but again, it's heavy stuff in places - but both of these cover MS stereo, which is what most video sound recordists mess up when they first try it.

Perhaps we should have a discussion on sound techniques, because the advice often promoted about getting mics in close applies for 95% of the time, but sometimes that other 5% comes back and bites you. Everyone has really firm ideas on mic placement, usually formed from experience - but every 'rule' has exceptions.

I suspect all experienced sound ops know when these rules must be set aside. Perhaps they should be guidelines. Consider these two very common 'rules'.

Get the mic in close
Never use shotguns indoors

The experienced sound op knows why these rules are always stated - and also what circumstances may dictate ignoring the rule.

The Yamaha book covers mic polar patterns really well, as do the DPA on-line source - you will be able to understand why the rule was generated, and why the sound recorded when you didn't follow the rule sounds like it does. Once you understand what is happening, you're better able to make decisions.


All that said - before thinking of specialising in audio - do you have a set of decent ears? When I was teaching in college - I discovered that some people could not hear anything other than radical eq changes, some had problems with aural accuracy. A few could not hear a compressor working, so setting one correctly was totally impossible for them. Things like EQ are very often musical features - to adjust eq you need a good ear. In most cases you are adjusting for 'realism' in video, making things sound natural - and that's not easy for people without the right ear. Most sound recordists - not all of course - have a home studio of their own where they can work. Very useful for honing your skills but also a place where you can generate soundscapes and effects. The on location sound recordist bit is just one element of the job.
 
Victor Nhat Nguyen said:
....btw I know that sound is mostly just getting the mic as close as possible...
Click to expand...

Mostly? Getting the microphone close is just 1 of MANY things that goes into recording good sound.
That's like saying taking a photo is mostly just aiming a camera at something.

Start reading as many threads about production sound online as you can, on as many sites as you can find. (this site, jwsoundgroup.net, and about 1000 others with little tid bits here and there)
Then after you acquire gear, use it over and over and over and implement what youve read over weeks, months, years and
learn what works for you and what doesn't for a particular situation.

Since you are talking about doing "professional" sound make sure you read and more importantly figure out a way to get on jobs to watch other "professional" sound mixers
and learn proper set etiquette and the politics of small 2 man crew shoots all the way to large shoots (they have differnt etiquette).
Once you understand the technical side of sound to a certain point you will then realize that set etiquette and behavior etc
will be what gets you continued work even MORE importantly than your actual sound you record.
 
Rippie said:
Mostly? Getting the microphone close is just 1 of MANY things that goes into recording good sound.
That's like saying taking a photo is mostly just aiming a camera at something.
Click to expand...

Perfect!

Another great quote is: "Recording sound just by looking at the meters is like taking a photograph without looking in the viewfinder"
 
John Willett said:
Perfect!

Another great quote is: "Recording sound just by looking at the meters is like taking a photograph without looking in the viewfinder"
Click to expand...
I know that, it's just that I have heard so many times to get the mic close that my head hurts. I also know that hyper-cardioid are good for inside because it doesn't reflect as much. And then I know of using paddings to kill off reflections. But that's where my knowledge of audio end. I just sign up at jwsoundgroup.net. Seems like a great site.
 
Some good books to use to study up ....
1: Producing Great Sound for Film and Video, by Jay Rose
2: Audio Postproduction for Film and Video, also by Jay Rose
3: Location Audio Simplified, by S. Dean Miles, available from Trew Audio
4: Sound for Digital Video, by Tomlinson Holman
5: Sound for Film and Television, also by Holman
 
Victor - you've probably read these replies and wondered what is going on. You've read all sorts of things and noticed similar comments coming up, but have not quite got a handle on the 'whys'. As an example, you mention hypers are good for inside
because it doesn't reflect as much
Click to expand...

That's where your reading has become a bit confused. The problem is because of the narrowing of the main frontal portion of the polar pattern PLUS the strange side and rear lobes that shotguns have. If the walls of the room reflect the sound back, via a bounce or two, the side lobes can hear this, and because of the extra distance the sound has travelled a cancellation/combining effect takes place - usually making the sound really 'boxy' or in some cases strange filtering effects happen making the sound thin and weedy. A mic that is a bit wider at the front but doesn't have these side/rear lobes doesn't sound the same. Most sound people gradually get to size up a room quickly and can almost predict what the sound will be like - and make a sensible mic choice, there and then on the spot. It's to do with background knowledge and experience. You get the basics from the books, but need to hear the result to determine if it's good or not. The books Steve posted are a good start - BUT they assume that you can hear these things. Your posts indicate you are a real beginner with audio. So you need a bit of experience to be able to make sense of the books, or again you will fall into the habit of doing things by numbers - with no ability to decide the book technique is right or wrong for your project.


If I were you, I'd borrow a few different mics, and connect them up so you can use a pair of good quality in ear phones. Then turn the levels up a bit and play around with the mic - really listening to discover what they can hear that is good, and what they hear that is bad. It's amazing what mics can hear (and what they can't).
 
Victor Nhat Nguyen said:
...
btw I know that sound is mostly just getting the mic as close as possible, please don't start another long discussion about that.
Click to expand...

OK you got beat up for the over simplification of that statement but the other "problem" with it is you just skipped a VERY large aspect of "sound" for film. On a film with a budget more man hours actually go in to sound postproduction than production sound.

Post doesn't have much if anything to do with mic placement. FX recording, Foley and ADR a bit, but not what you are talking about.

Read the stickies in this section. Then go find some local production and post production folks and go and help out, or talk to them. San Antonio has a lot of film work and Texas has pretty good film incentives. You might be able to get an "internship" with a low budget production? No budget and student films are not much help since they may not know anymore than you do, but a small low budget film may be small enough that you can actually get on it and big enough that the folks you are volunteering to help know what they are doing. A whole lot cheaper than film school.
 
Steve House said:
Some good books to use to study up ....
1: Producing Great Sound for Film and Video, by Jay Rose
2: Audio Postproduction for Film and Video, also by Jay Rose
3: Location Audio Simplified, by S. Dean Miles, available from Trew Audio
4: Sound for Digital Video, by Tomlinson Holman
5: Sound for Film and Television, also by Holman
Click to expand...

Location Sound also sells Location Audio Simplified if that's your cup of tea. I believe it's $10-15 cheaper than Trew/Coffey sound.
 
1: Producing Great Sound for Film and Video, by Jay Rose
2: Audio Postproduction for Film and Video, also by Jay Rose

I can vouch for these, they helped me immensely.
 
The Production Sound Bible - Rik Viers

The Practical Art of Motion Picture Sound - David Yewdall
Sound Design - David Sonnenschien
Dialog Editing - John Purcell
The Foley Grail - Vanessa Ament
The Sound Effects Bible - Rik Viers



The real secret to solid production sound is the boom-op. The boom-op has one of the most difficult jobs on a film set. S/he must know the dialog intimately, and keep a mic at the end of a 10' to 16' boom pole precisely aimed at the talent while not casting shadows, keeping the mic and boom-pole out of frame, and moving around while avoiding crew, equipment and props. Oh, yeah, this must all be done SILENTLY. A great boom-op is worth his/her weight in gold.

Sound-for-picture is an integrated whole. It starts with the script and is thoroughly discussed during preproduction. While on the set the smart director listens to his sound team and takes the time to do the "little" things, like capturing room-tones and dialog wilds, that will make the audio post process more bearable. Audio post is, essentially, creating a complete sonic world from scratch. Everything between lines of dialog is stripped out and replaced with room-tones and ambience. All human created sounds are replaced with Foley and all other sounds are created and put in place by the sound effects team. Then score and source music are then mated to the sound design and integrated into a sonic whole by the rerecording mixer(s).

 
Victor Nhat Nguyen said:
I know that, it's just that I have heard so many times to get the mic close that my head hurts. I also know that hyper-cardioid are good for inside because it doesn't reflect as much. And then I know of using paddings to kill off reflections. But that's where my knowledge of audio end. I just sign up at jwsoundgroup.net. Seems like a great site.
Click to expand...

It actually depends on what you are doing.

I have only used a hyper-cardioid once in all my 40-odd years of recording. I mostly use cardioid, fig-8 and omni microphones. :beer:
 
We're using a shotgun in a tiny dining room scene for a couple of reasons and it's working great. Just have to use it right.
 
Steve House said:
Some good books to use to study up ....
1: Producing Great Sound for Film and Video, by Jay Rose
2: Audio Postproduction for Film and Video, also by Jay Rose
3: Location Audio Simplified, by S. Dean Miles, available from Trew Audio
4: Sound for Digital Video, by Tomlinson Holman
5: Sound for Film and Television, also by Holman
Click to expand...


Unfortunately the "Location Audio Simplified" book does not appear to be available in a "Kindle" version... I've been tending to buy my 'manual/education' books in e-form just to have them available to me 'everywhere'...

Most of the others do have kindle versions, but I already have hardcopies of some... bought before I got on the ebook program...
 
Steve House said:
Miles has a website and blog for Location Audio Simplified and he says it is coming soon in an e-book format.
Click to expand...

From the look of the entry I found on this topic, this is not just a e-book, but an interactive i-book, for which mention of multimedia clips suggests that this is a complete rewrite.

But not yet completed and out...
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
Unfortunately the "Location Audio Simplified" book does not appear to be available in a "Kindle" version... I've been tending to buy my 'manual/education' books in e-form just to have them available to me 'everywhere'...

Most of the others do have kindle versions, but I already have hardcopies of some... bought before I got on the ebook program...
Click to expand...

How about "get over it". I have a Kindle and like it a lot but if you need to bring your reference books with you... Sorry that just doesn't hack it.

First off there is only so much you can learn from books with out "doing it" and second the first time I see a sound person "looking up" something it's the last time I'm working with them. It's not that they need to know it all but they need to come and ask me, I don't have time for them to cruse an course on sound ON THE SET.

My general take on Kindle is that novels are great, any book with pictures sucks, and any book with illustrations is flawed. References are kind of OK but you can't efficiently bookmark (at least not as recall fast as a postIt in a "real" book so I have kind of shied away from ebook manuals.

Point is no "eBook" version is NO excuse to not buy the book.
 
Good advice and tips and tricks have been giving already,

I would say: it all depends on what you're doing:

- if you're doing ENG (news) and you have to follow Obama and Obama is going inside outside inside outside inside don't say "héé wait !!! I have to change the mic frop shotgun to hyper to shotgun to hyper"
Just use shotgun... also inside.... when having shadow isues, pull back a little or try from below. The "what is he saying and do I understand it" is more important then "doesn't it sound a little bit to much reflective.

- if you're doing film: yes change mics, ask for silence (demand for silence), redo it when it's not good etc...

- docu is somewhat in between depending on a lot of things....

And be nice, don't start shouting or "pwoo pwoo pwoo" someone... stay calm and with a relaxed voice ask for silence. Also to other crew members explain in one sentence "I have sound isues".

Keep your cables with you, keep then nicely folled up, have +- 1,5m to camera (maybe litle more, and the boompole side, make some "loops" to easely make your boompole longer.

switch on wireless stuff not the very last moment but a few minutes before...

Sometimes people can wait, sometimes not... If George (Nespresso...) is giving an interview it will mostly be a whole setup, so you have "time" to give a lav etc...
If people are on strike....just boom them
 
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I prefer hard cover book anyway. I will try to learn the basics from books and hopefully I can be an intern somewhere and that's where I think the real learning will begin.
 
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