ZazaCast
Major Contributor
Oh yes we are....
I think it's safe to say we're not alone in the universe.
- Thread starter Batutta
- Start date
Oh yes we are....
Why would I have to be assuming that? I sure don't. If we're the first (and presently only), that's true however long we're here.
Jawa Ex Machina
Veteran
Of course there's no evidence that we're NOT alone. You can't prove a negative, that's impossible.
If God exists, you could eventually find a way to prove that, but you could never prove that he doesn't.
Look.
There's only a finite number of living organisms on this planet, even counting everyone who has ever lived and died, as well as everyone who will live and die in the future, and I mean everything from Bill Gates to the smallest microbe to the last T-rex who died.
But that finite number is still massive beyond massive and it's still not even close to how many planets there are out there at this moment.
Now, take into account that we're also talking about every single planet that has ever existed and every single planet that will exist.
The Universe may be finite, but there is absolutely nothing that actually points to us being the first intelligent life in it.
No. We're not that special.
All it takes is the proper circumstances and time. There are enough planets that these circumstances should be plenty and the Big Bang didn't exactly happen yesterday.
Gord.T
Still "Senior Member"
Science doesn't assume. There's no evidence we're not alone, only supposition. You can't make the assumption that we're not that special, because we could be.
And every planet that will exist doesn't factor into us being the first.
OK, we're not going to get into religion, creationism vs. evolution, or anything approaching it. Not necessary for this discussion and not allowed by the rules.
Mattykins
Cute Member
13.9 Billion Year post-big bang and we think we are the "first"? I think that's a silly thought unto it's own.
Humans (homo-sapiens) have been around 500k years. If you want to consider an evolutionary standpoint. However we came to be, humans almost died out millenia ago. 69 - 75,000 years ago, the human race was effectively brought down to 1,000 breeding pairs. Estimates also hover at 10,000 humans on earth after a near-extinction event. But you are talking less than 5,000 breeding pairs in the human race. So even though the odds did align with earth - a supervolcano almost destroyed us. That would have been a 425,000 year timespan since the beginning of the homo sapien. We managed to survive. And even so, that's 500k years. And it's been 4 billion years since we figured life might have existed on Earth in general and less than a billion years since multi-celled life existed. A tiny timeframe.
So out of trillions of stars over 13.9 billion years and many more trillions of planets around those stars...surely one of them must have gone through the same process. You can't tell me that multi-cell life doesn't exist elsewhere. There might even be intelligent life. Imagine if that life is like us and could think like us. Unless they were incredibly advanced, they wouldn't be able to explore the entire universe. Even if they were advanced, it still wouldn't happen. There is just too much.
I bet any money that if intelligent life exists elsewhere out there, they are thinking the same as us. They look up at the sky and ask "are we alone". They'll never know the answer. They'll never know that billions of lightyears away, another planet has life looking up at their sky asking the same question.
Humans (homo-sapiens) have been around 500k years. If you want to consider an evolutionary standpoint. However we came to be, humans almost died out millenia ago. 69 - 75,000 years ago, the human race was effectively brought down to 1,000 breeding pairs. Estimates also hover at 10,000 humans on earth after a near-extinction event. But you are talking less than 5,000 breeding pairs in the human race. So even though the odds did align with earth - a supervolcano almost destroyed us. That would have been a 425,000 year timespan since the beginning of the homo sapien. We managed to survive. And even so, that's 500k years. And it's been 4 billion years since we figured life might have existed on Earth in general and less than a billion years since multi-celled life existed. A tiny timeframe.
So out of trillions of stars over 13.9 billion years and many more trillions of planets around those stars...surely one of them must have gone through the same process. You can't tell me that multi-cell life doesn't exist elsewhere. There might even be intelligent life. Imagine if that life is like us and could think like us. Unless they were incredibly advanced, they wouldn't be able to explore the entire universe. Even if they were advanced, it still wouldn't happen. There is just too much.
I bet any money that if intelligent life exists elsewhere out there, they are thinking the same as us. They look up at the sky and ask "are we alone". They'll never know the answer. They'll never know that billions of lightyears away, another planet has life looking up at their sky asking the same question.
Matt, the rest of your post kind of argues against your first two sentences.
(BTW, I'm not pulling the idea out of thin air; it's an idea Carl Sagan used to talk about.)
(BTW, I'm not pulling the idea out of thin air; it's an idea Carl Sagan used to talk about.)
EDV
Well-known member
I know that book extract contained the word "evolutionists", but I don't think you should dismiss it on that basis. I'm only arguing that the odds seem to be heavily stacked against the emergence of advanced life in the universe. Too many factors involved, and they all have to be in place.
Jawa Ex Machina
Veteran
Like I said, you can't prove a negative so it's impossible for there to be evidence of us not being alone.
But you make the assumption we are the first based on... what exactly? That we could be?
That's kind of like picking up a rock saying "Napoleon might have thrown this rock. I know there are a lot of rocks in the world, but he must at some point in his life have thrown a rock and there's no evidence pointing to him not having thrown this one. Therefore, I can't assume he didn't."
Of course we're not alone...otherwise it would be a waste of space.
But...you have to admit that US people have more a reaction like "whaaaw, whooow, yeaaah man !!!!"
and europeans are more "take it easy" thinking... "What, there's another life in space...fine... There's not...ok...also fine..." (except for the french
)
Well, that's how I see it in "typical american being movies"
But...you have to admit that US people have more a reaction like "whaaaw, whooow, yeaaah man !!!!"
and europeans are more "take it easy" thinking... "What, there's another life in space...fine... There's not...ok...also fine..." (except for the french
)Well, that's how I see it in "typical american being movies"
I didn't make any assumption. I just said there's no reason it couldn't be. Based on the evidence available, it can't be ruled out. We could be first and alone. Someone has to be.
Jawa Ex Machina
Veteran
Right, and I'm saying the reason there's no evidence available is that there could never be any evidence available, because it's impossible to prove that since it's a negative and you can't prove a negative.
I could never prove I didn't kill OJ Simpson's wife because that's a non-event. Killing someone leaves traces like fingerprints, footsteps and gloves. These things can be removed. Not killing someone is a non-event and doesn't leave any traces so I could never present you with evidence that I didn't kill OJ Simpson's wife, or the non-existance of Santa Clause.
There's no evidence available that show the easter bunny isn't working for Al Quaida either. At least, I don't think so.
We could always check with Wikileaks.
BTW, I'd like to say hi to the guy at CIA or Secret Service who's browsing internet forums for "Al Quaida", "Wikileaks", "Kill" and "Killing".
How's it going, man?
I didn't argue with any of that and I didn't make any definitive conclusions. But saying that we're not alone is a definitive conclusion, and there is no evidence for it.
Mattykins
Cute Member
I don't know how I argued against my point. "Intelligent life" was something that is 500 million - 750million years old. Out of 13.9 billion years. That's a lot of millions where another planets could have developed life.
What I said was that humans were almost only around for 400,000 years before we almost died out. That could have happened anywhere. There might have been intelligent life before us somewhere else. Who knows if they are still around though? All it takes is a an extinction level event and that life is eliminated. So we may be alone in this current timeframe, but I'd doubt very highly we are the first. And it's almost a moot point. We'll never be able to tell. We'll only be able to speculate. Unless someone or something pays us a visit.
What I said was that humans were almost only around for 400,000 years before we almost died out. That could have happened anywhere. There might have been intelligent life before us somewhere else. Who knows if they are still around though? All it takes is a an extinction level event and that life is eliminated. So we may be alone in this current timeframe, but I'd doubt very highly we are the first. And it's almost a moot point. We'll never be able to tell. We'll only be able to speculate. Unless someone or something pays us a visit.
Al MacLeod
Well-known member
Well, you know, Napoleon started his military career as an artillery officer, so chances are very good he threw a lot of rocks and any thing else he could lift!
Jon Starr
Veteran
ZazaCast
Major Contributor
20...21... whatever it takes.