I need a partner that I can give ideas to, for concept credit.

MattinSTL

MattinSTL

Sound Modulator
Ideally I want to team up with somebody and get credit for a concept... or co-writer credit for my input on a story.

How do you do this?

In my limited experience... any good idea can be changed a little and then the writer takes full credit... or once a script is turning out well... a writer gains emotional attachment and the better the script, the more they decide it's more about their writing and less about my idea... and decide they're entitled to full credit (even to to the concept).

How do I share my ideas, but get credit for them?

Do I have to just knuckle down and start writing my own scripts? Is there a way to meet somebody who is a GOOD screenwriter and trust that they'll remember me when things go well?

If I were being paid for ideas I wouldn't care, but I want to find a way that my idea-prone mind can work for me... that I can get a reputation as an idea guy... or else make an income at it and let somebody else have the credit.

I don't want to debate what ideas are worth... but I would like to find a way to keep SOME connection to them.

I'm hoping to find a good screenwriter that I can trust to be some degree of partner. Is this a lost cause?
 
I guess it's pretty tough trying to get your credit when it's just at a pure "ideas" form. But if you develop that idea into a story - with specific details, you can then probably get a screenwriter who's looking for something to write about. The more specific the story, the easier it will be to keep a "story by" credit. Writing is such a personal experience, so this kind of stuff really has to be worked out right from the start. The writer will be writing your story - or maybe you could both share a story by credit. Whatever it is, it needs to be sorted out before the script is written. A treatment you're both happy with. I see your point, a lot of writers will have the tendancy to want to weave you out of the mix as they get invested in the story and change it to suit their needs.

It's definitely going to be a challenge finding a really great writer who doesn't have any of their own ideas, and happens to be an excellent screenwriter. But they're definitely out there. Real crafty writers, not so much ideas people. People that are great once they've got a little push.

There are heaps of people at donedealpro, or writers groups sitting around on the forums all day talking about screenwriting while they wait for an idea, finding out if they're worth your time might be difficult, but you never know. As a starting point, you could give out one of your ideas (Maybe not your best) to whoever wants it, as an assignment for screenwriters just looking to get scripts under their belt but don't know what to write about....on the condition they give you the story by credit. So maybe a few writers might actually do it - maybe one of them will write a compelling script out of it -- and you can then form a partenership of some sort with them.

It would definitely be easier finding someone you actually know - or at least someone you can work with in person that you can team up with. I don't know, as you point out, a lot writers could easily just rub you out, send off their script, sell it for a million bucks and say seeya later, change their email address.

Maybe you should just try nailing out a screenplay? You've got lots of ideas which a lot of screenwriters lack, so that's a good starting point, maybe that would be better. If they're your stories - your ideas, why not try and put them out yourself? It would definitely be worth a shot. If you write the script yourself, it's yours - you have the control, you can do what you want with it. The important thing is you have great ideas, and that's worth something.
 
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Odd are there are ten scripts already in the writing process (development), or already written, or sitting in prodco or agent filing cabinets, based on your idea. Because an idea is so general there are many stories that can be written around that idea. Until it is developed into a story, with characters, turning points, a unique world, subplot, etc., it is not a story, just an idea.

But if you take your idea and craft it into a story outline (eg. the 15 plot points of Blake Snyder's beat sheet), mold some characters, and then type that up into a treatment (10-20 single spaced pages of narrative), then you can copyright and even sell that treatment, as you have turned your idea into a story.

As Chris said, few writers would jump on board an idea, because most good writers I would think have a boatload of their own great ideas waiting to be developed as time permits.

Got an idea for a story about a boy who discovers he has magical powers, defeats an evil mage having great magical powers himself, in order to save the world? Harry Potter, Star Wars, Earth Sea, etc.
 
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You have to write it yourself. Its probably just the reality. I had a conversation last week with an actor/director. Hes directed one small short film and just appeared in a high profile cable movie with a couple of nice scenes. Since the show has aired he has had at least one person a day wanting to work with him with pretty much the same scenario you outlined. I'm sure your ideas are different, but most good writers don't want the hassle unless upfront money is involved or youve got the juice to have a reasonable shot at getting it made/sold.
 
Kill Bill - written by Quentin but the bride character credit given to both Quentin and Uma.

E.T. was written my Melissa but I believe the story was from Spielberg.

UNLESS you actually WRITE half the story yourself, the "written by" credit will go to the writer and you will get the "story by" credit.

So my questions are these:

1. Are you wanting to film this yourself as an indie?
2. Are you wanting to sell this as a script?

If the answer is yes to #1 then really all you need is a writer with whom you can give and take. Writers are not secretaries who jot down dictations, they have
ideas and if you listen to them and COLLABORATE the story will flow.

If you are looking to dictate a story to a screenwriter and have them write it, then I suggest you pay someone to put your story ideas into a script form,
like a ghost writer. They get paid to format your ideas for you.

To CO-WRITE then you better know HOW TO WRITE a script and not just spurt off ideas. Writing takes years of learning the ins-and-outs and I didn't figure it
out until recently.

My advice is that you take credit as "story by" and let the screenwriter write the story so that you'll have something that is marketable.

Charli
 
The 'idea' has to be more than a concept, I should have stated. I believe Spielberg actually went through the story idea for ET while filming another movie, but he
was a strong role in the storyline of ET.

There are no short cuts to writing.

Writers are given "ideas" on which to work on, even as Ryan has stated, and get paid to put those ideas with their style and voice and imagination on paper.

1. Are you going to write dialogue?
2. Conceptualize theme?
3. Route the journey?
4. Have a satisfying ending?

Or do you just have a "thought" of what would be cool to film but you don't know how to go about putting it together but you still want credit for it?

I've co-written only once - took a short already written and rewrote it with my own style and inputted some of my ideas.

I've rewritten only once - took a short story, stripped it to the bone and wrote my own version of the director's idea.

When you CO-WRITE you get into a marriage with someone. It's totally different, can be frustrating, must be give and take.

I dunno, Matt, sounds like you got something you really want to do but you don't want to let loose of it, so learn to write, or as Ryan stated, be part of the
entire process to get that 'story by' credit.
 
I appreciate the input... from everybody.

Chris... I appreciate you handling my question with kid gloves. I'm fully aware of the B.S. factor I'm laying out here... I KNOW that EVERYBODY always thinks their ideas, possessions... EVERYTHING that's "theirs" is somehow worth more because of their own perspective.

Here's the kind of thing I'm talking about... is this a good idea? Hell... I don't know... but I think I can half-write a story... but I need somebody else that's reasonably level-headed... that I can brainstorm story development with... who has no more ego then I do (which is to say not much ego)... so that "we" could rationalize a good story to both our satisfaction.

Here's an idea that I had for TimeFest... that would have also worked for Betrayal Fest,

"Minute Men"

A secret society of killers, notable for their ability to get into a place, make the kill, and get back out... all within a minute. We capture audience attention by showing a loosely-robed woman telling her lover that she'll be right back... as she steps into a bathroom off the bedroom... she comes back out, dropping the robe, to find her lover's wide eyes staring at the ceiling as a pool of blood is growing out from under him... she screams as the scene cuts to black.

Open to a file being carried (with this same man's photo on the folder) and filed as we widen to reveal an office.

There are 3-4 men in the office... with only 2 clearly lit faces... here we explain "the minute men" and establish our "lead" character... a young man, ex special ops... who found the organization through another ex-military friend who is the other lit face... another minute-man. He is briefed on his first mission... that will be extremely dangerous, but the "mark" is an older man... and by the new guy's credentials... shouldn't be too much trouble.

After the young man accepts his assignment (and leaves)... it is then revealed that the mark is yet another minute-man... who is aging out of the program... we identify his face through another folder... with his picture on it.

We cut to the stealthy (car pulling down the street?) approach to the mark's house... with the young man's friend (of the secret society) accompanying our new recruit on his first mission... This is where we'd have appropriate supportive dialog to build tension and get the third act started... after this point... the amount of struggle and action depicted in the house would depend on the budget of the story... but tension continues as our man outside (the FRIEND)... is watching as seconds tick off on his watch... as the watch approaches a minute... we have a gunshot in the house! The friend says something about the lack of stealth... in the fact that we HEAR a gunshot... that the new guy got careless and f*cked it up... then we see a shadowed figure come out to the car... the door opens... and it's the older minute-man... he gets in and explains (arrogantly) that he has killed the young "contender" for his place... and upon hearing this, the "friend" basically congratulates (subtly) the old guy... as if everybody in the society knows this is how it ends for them... that eventually they won't be sharper then the upcoming killers... but the other guy's friend sees it coldly... and all as part of the deal...

We could end it there... or we could have the crane-up shot of the car driving off as we hear the dialog inside... something about going out to get a drink? Or the old guy making what sounds like an ordinary call to police to report shooting a potential burglar... etc.


Well... that's what I mean... I can come up with stuff like this off the top of my head... pretty much all the time... I'll get some little nudge of an idea and it totally fleshes out like that... BUT... I realize this may not be all that valuable unless I can turn this into a totally finished script... although I wish there was a way to take something like that above (a mish-mash of ideas and SOME story)... and make it ready to shoot.

I agree that maybe I should just learn how to effectively write stuff on my own... but I think doing it all by myself will most likely result in a bunch of (what I THINK... just my opinion) pretty good ideas... that I'll never do anything with... I don't know?

In STL I feel like I'd have to do everything by myself... but if I at least met a writer... that I could grow a "professional friendship/partnership" with... maybe I could actually produce some of this stuff and SOMEHOW get somewhere with it... I'd be thrilled just to have a decent entry in one of the fests here!
 
As others have said, I think you really have to know how the entire story plays out, all the main character and story arcs, second act, ending, etc, as well as if you were *re*telling something everyone knows intimately like "Wizard Of Oz" or "It's A Wonderful Life". If you know *your* story as well as most of us know those (and it's good) then you might have something a good writer can collaborate with you on. I think you'd need to write at least a clear treatment to get that across, even if it's not terribly 'well written' per se. Anyone who knows the classic movies I mentioned above well could (at least in theory) do so for them.

If you don't have as clearly developed a story as that then you're probably in more in the situation that Ryan described above.
 
how do you envision this partnership? are you sitting down with this person writing out a script or is it more like you email them ideas?
 
You have to write it.

The only way to get a writing related credit is to do the writing.

As someone with some Story By credits - I wrote a full screenplay and a couple of rewrites to get that. Other writers came in after me, and by the time the whole mess reached the screen, only my story remained. I also do not have Story By credit on a bunch of projects that began with my treatments... but that was not enough in these cases to get me a credit.

You can hire a writer to script your idea... but allow me to add that I'd sell my own script for less than I'd write yours, because I am passionate about my story and, as an experienced writer, know that my script can be made in to a movie that makes money (some of which trickles down to me). If I do a lot of work, I want to see it on screen.

So, write it. That way you get your credit, you don't have to pay a writer up front (50% of what a script sells for is a sucker deal - most scripts don't sell), and you get exactly what you want... heck you wrote that.

- Bill
 
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If you want credit refuse credit, everyone in Hollywood knows who does what.

Don't put your name on anything.
 
ugafan said:
how do you envision this partnership? are you sitting down with this person writing out a script or is it more like you email them ideas?
Click to expand...

Ultimately... here's what I'd really like to find... over-simplified as it sounds... somebody COOL with a busy mind and small ego. That's how I see myself (perhaps incorrectly)... a smart guy who works best when sharing enthusiasm with others... but I lack the cohesive writing skill to create a full, practical script. I get writer's block in weird places of a story... (as you should see in my "stilted" writing above... where I say something like "tension building dialog"... is where I need help/input figuring out how to get the story into the next scene, etc.)

I just don't think being a sound guy is ever going to get me where I want to be... but I don't think I'm a good enough writer (yet?) to get me there, either. Sure it's easy to watch fest entries or films and think "that wasn't that great of an idea from the start... why'd they make that?"... but I do think that... a lot.

Maybe I'm nuts in thinking I'll find somebody who is strong where I'm weak, and vice-versa... but I'm hoping to meet somebody who's enthusiastic, sharp, and won't get totally burned out on the "partnership" if I say "dude, the guy would never say something like that..." etc.

Here's another idea I had for TimeFest... I tried to collaborate on a script, but it didn't work... anyway... another idea (which I'm not afraid of giving away... these are like Doritos for me... crunch all you want)...

Problems... costumes, locations, a child actor. Partial solution... can be shot here in the midwest in an old barn... decorated and lit to appear late 1800's. Costumes are "amish" type. Can be shot with only 3 actors total. (this is what I mean by thinking in practical terms... I was thinking again "fest" entry... i.e. SMALL production.)



"The Watchmaker"

We open on an old man working at a small table in a dirt-floored shop (white hair, round wire glasses)... the shop and table lit with lanterns and mirror reflected sunlight... everything is a little dusty, and old. Enter woman (complete with bonnet) and child (young boy... about 9 years old)... the boy is solemn, but roaming and stops to peer into a glass case displaying a pocket watch, and other old yet interesting things.

The mother continues to the now standing watchmaker. Cut to dirty over the shoulder shots (back and forth for dialog)... as the mother pleads her case to the old watchmaker... that he is the only one who can possibly fix their family's precious heirloom... she has a handkerchief full of pieces that we don't see clearly... this conversation shot is cut to a long distance 2-shot... with the still fixated child in the foreground... and the conversation muted (so that we, the audience, NOR the child... can make out what is being said)... cut back to the woman... slipping tears as the watchmaker agrees to the repair... and she pushes the cloth of pieces into his hands... we show the contents of the cloth and it's only a few dirty coins.

The mother rushes out of the shop... past the child, crying... as the old man gazes at the child... (does the boy say "momma!" as she runs past? not sure what is most effective here... maybe the boy is still solemn?)

Cut to night shot... in the shop... the boy is sitting in a chair watching the old man nervously clean off his table and organize surgical-type tools. (This is where we need just a little conversation to build the 2nd act "arc" of the story... tension... fear?... not sure.)... A plot device would be to have the child ask simple, probing questions to build tension... like "are you going to find out what's wrong with me?"... but I like simpler dialog for children unless you're so lucky as to find an amazing local child actor.

So... upon readying the table and his tools (cleaning glasses, etc.) The old man lifts the boy to the table (under the arms)... and explains that the boy must be very still... and trust him (the old man)... he then lays the boy back on the table and opens the boy's shirt... and pulls a lantern closer to better see (I like to think of stories in ways that solve budget issues at this level... such as only showing what you have to... and NOT clearly showing other things)... now the old man chooses an instrument, and reminds the boy to again... stay very still... there's no anesthetic... the old man begins to cut a long incision into the little boy's chest... the boy turns his head to look at the man, as the man gives a more forceful "you must be still"... (this shot is again a dirty over the shoulder... cam below table looking up at man... can't see what old man has done, or surgical area)...

When we reveal the surgery site (possibly just through the reflection of the old man's glasses... OR reflection from one of the sun-reflecting mirrors of earlier scene)... we see that the boy is mechanical inside... all big gears and oily-bloody cogs... ratcheting and turning... like the blood-soaked inner workings of a watch. This vision is accompanied by muted clunking and ratcheting sounds.

The old man discovers the problem... and removes a small gear... (cam racks from his eyes/glasses with a look of discovery... to the gear, which has a couple broken teeth)... the old man then sinks (emotionally)... Child: "What? what's wrong?"... Old man... sighing: "They don't make these anymore..."

Now the old man has his back to the child... we see his hands resting on the table, then lift... shaking a bit... as he starts nervously choosing another tool. Child: "what are you going to do?" Old man: "stay still... I... I will fix you."

The old man turns around with more frightening tools then the knife he started out with for the child's surgery...

CUT to the next day... a nice... sunny day as the child is running around the shop... energetic and enthusiastic... the old man is cleaning one of the items from the front glass case...

The mother arrives and comes in to find her energetic, healthy little boy... the boy runs to mother as she scoops him up... she's teary-eyed... happy. The old man is pleasant and assures her that her boy will be fine... he will live healthy for many years... she thanks the watchmaker profusely (additional payment of some bread and a chicken perhaps?) and leaves with the boy.

The old man's pleasant face fades to normal as he heads towards the back of the shop... his walking becoming progressively more labored with each step... until he "crashes" into a chair... sitting... totally out of breath... at a table... the cam racks focus to the child's broken gear in the foreground... then racks back to the old man still panting... as he tears his shirt open to make an inspection... revealing a crudely stitched up chest wound, bleeding... in the same place as the child's.

Cam shot jumps in towards the wound as the same clunking, ratcheting watch sound gets louder with each jump forward... until the gear-sound clunks to a stop and cuts to BLACK.


This is one of my favorite "ideas"... how about that one?
 
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Thanks again everybody... for your input (Ryan, Chip, Uga, Ted, CHARLI, Bill...).

I think I'm doing the same thing people do in the audio forum... asking questions that are answered in the stickies... and maybe I should have said I'm looking for a writer for collaboration, instead of concept credit? Not sure on that... but I am going to work through the stickies...

Charli... to address your 4 points... I'm hoping my couple of "ideas" there do that... but I think I have a good understanding of a story arc with the 3 acts and BME. I don't think most indi-productions have any concept of BME... (I'd like to get better at this myself... as GOOD TV commercials prove you can have BME in as little as 30 seconds, but so few people can do it... everything short and indi is always a "vignette" these days.)

I want to offer a concept with some details that I think are important towards capturing audience attention, or pulling at heart-strings, etc. Then work through a script together with somebody... where they can accept or reject my thoughts (making a case of why) and I can do the same... and then, hopefully, actually MAKE the short... even if not for DVXuser.

lambert said:
You have to write it yourself. Its probably just the reality. I had a conversation last week with an actor/director. Hes directed one small short film and just appeared in a high profile cable movie with a couple of nice scenes. Since the show has aired he has had at least one person a day wanting to work with him with pretty much the same scenario you outlined. I'm sure your ideas are different, but most good writers don't want the hassle unless upfront money is involved or youve got the juice to have a reasonable shot at getting it made/sold.
Click to expand...

I think this is probably the bitter pill... reality. Even in STL... when I get a reasonably high-profile gig (something national)... I suddenly have a lot more friends. This is why I tried to make it clear that I'm not wanting to "glom onto" somebody... I want to get a mutually good thing going. I am SUPER-APPRECIATIVE of my time working on the FM crew in LA... I absolutely LOVE those guys! But I gotta' step it up... sound 'aint gonna' do it.

Randall... thanks for the input... it was a combination of your post, and Ryan's "dare" that made me post a couple of my ideas. I agree that most ideas, like most songs... have influences of other work... it's like the 5-billion monkeys thing... odds are there aren't too many truly original thoughts. I've rarely felt that somebody STOLE an idea from me... but I've seen a lot of ideas that were my own... and watched somebody else beat me to the punch. That's what I'm wanting to change.

J.R. with you I can never tell if it's sarcasm... but your post is 50% of my point. I think I have talent to bring to the table outside of sound... and I gotta' figure out how to climb the ladder. Do you ever think to yourself how cool it would be to have FM's reputation... for your own end to end work? What you really need for that is story, production, direction, acting... the first of which, being story.

I wanna' be like Mark.
 
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I think both of your stories fit the description I posted above for a script idea to be suitable for collaboration. I find short film ideas to be actually a lot harder to come by than features, but maybe that's just me. I believe Alex Whitmer, a regular poster around here, might be someone to run things by. You might also take a crack at writing it yourself and post it on Zoetrope.com for reviews, and mention that you're open to collaboration with co-writers. I'd be surprised if you didn't get a nibble or two there.

Best of luck!
 
Thanks Ted! I appreciate your (and everyone else's TIME and effort to comment on my dilemma)...

Can anybody say if the two examples I have above would count for "story by" credit... while a writer gets "screenplay by" credit? (We're talking about SHORTS here anyway...)

For a feature... I have a LOT more to say then the above... and... for that matter... I've got a couple feature ideas that I think are as good or better then what's above... AND current... AND commercial... AND unfortunately... big budget. A couple people on the boards know one of my favorite ideas... it's a super-hero film... but that's all I'll say about that one.
 
Well, in my opinion, yes, the ideas as you've presented them would qualify for a "story by" credit assuming they weren't substantially changed by a (co)writer (which happens a lot). Even if they were, you'd probaly still be due for a co-credit for story.

I think you have pretty complete short film ideas there, not just vague logline-type things, so I vote yes : )
 
MattinSTL said:
For a feature... I have a LOT more to say then the above... and... for that matter... I've got a couple feature ideas that I think are as good or better then what's above... AND current... AND commercial... AND unfortunately... big budget. A couple people on the boards know one of my favorite ideas... it's a super-hero film... but that's all I'll say about that one.
Click to expand...

When the technology got to the point where for me there was no excuse to not try to make films, one thing became clear to me... 1) I'd have to 'write' whatever I was going to film for any forseeable future, and 2) doing a 'feature' was way beyond the resources I had, either in writing a feature, or actually making a feature.

Hence, my writing has been directed to the narrative short film format, as is any plan for actually filming from such a script.

I also thought that I could get into some circle of associates that would have more resources to make films, etc... That has proved to be rather difficult... I took a class at a local junior college, thinking that perhaps there would be such a group in my 'neighborhood'... the project was like herding cats... and I ended doing almost everything... including producing the bad sound...

My 'day' job is not in the industry, so it is far more difficult to manage getting to group meetings that are in San Diego. About the only 'industry' conference I can get to is NAB, and that's only because I've been asked about projects relaying video streams over radio networks... yeah, I'm going to find all the hardware providers for H.264 compression... yeah... sure...

My 'recommendation' would be to write up some of the ideas you've posted, or others, using something like Celtx, to put it into a more 'script' format, and then get to some local scriptwriter's group and perhaps find a collaborator.

The alternative is to write short, 5-10 page, stories, that someone could then see their way to adapting to a script. That also allows for a much 'clearer' 'adapted from a short story by MattinSTL', type credit at the very least.
 
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