I can't say the same for other cameras, since I haven't used them so far, but why do DSLRs even have white balance? Instead of bringing a set of white balance cards when you shoot, wouldn't it just be more easier and logical to invent a camera, where you can adjust the Kelvin temperature manually to whatever you like, instead of having to bring different colored cards to get the exact color balance you want?
I don't get why white balance was built this way.
- Thread starter ironpony
- Start date
I'm not sure I've ever used different colored cards for white balance, at least not outside of when I was first learning how to use a camera. I generally just set it to white and I can adjust in post if I want to change it. A lot of times I set kelvin when it's a controlled environment and I know the numbers, instead of even bothering with white cards. Offsets are also totally doable, mixing both methods.
Oh ya. Too bad me nor the two guys I am collaborating with, do not have cameras that do so. Why was the white balance, take a picture to a white piece of paper invented at all though? It's such a dumb way of doing it compared to dialing in the temperature, since you need different colored papers or cards, to purchase separately. Why invented a complicated more illogical system, when their is already a more logical, easier, cheaper, better system?
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Oh ya. Too bad me nor the two guys I am collaborating with, do not have cameras that do so. Why was the white balance, take a picture to a white piece of paper invented at all though? It's such a dumb way of doing it compared to dialing in the temperature, since you need different colored papers or cards, to purchase separately. Why invented a complicated more illogical system, when their is already a more logical, easier, cheaper, better system?
Sorry I don't know why it posted twice.
Sorry I don't know why it posted twice.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
ironpony, would you all be using Canon Rebels, perhaps?
To my knowledge, just about every *OTHER* DSLR lets you dial in manual kelvin values. The rebel's menu had it taken out, as that is supposed to be the "budget" model designed for consumers/beginners. The Magic Lantern firmware however managed to put that functionality back in, which is one of the reasons I strongly recommend it to anyone working with the budget bodies like that.
But make no mistake- the GH2, GH1, 5D, 7D, 60D, heck just about any DSLR I've ever used for video (or even stills; olympus, Nikon and and pre-video Canon bodies) have had Kelvin values. Except the Rebel, which was intentional it seems. Sounds like you are discussing the exception rather than rule, perhaps?
Now, that doesn't explain why I used to have to do this with my DVX100 back in the day, but that's another discussion entirely.
To my knowledge, just about every *OTHER* DSLR lets you dial in manual kelvin values. The rebel's menu had it taken out, as that is supposed to be the "budget" model designed for consumers/beginners. The Magic Lantern firmware however managed to put that functionality back in, which is one of the reasons I strongly recommend it to anyone working with the budget bodies like that.
But make no mistake- the GH2, GH1, 5D, 7D, 60D, heck just about any DSLR I've ever used for video (or even stills; olympus, Nikon and and pre-video Canon bodies) have had Kelvin values. Except the Rebel, which was intentional it seems. Sounds like you are discussing the exception rather than rule, perhaps?
Now, that doesn't explain why I used to have to do this with my DVX100 back in the day, but that's another discussion entirely.
adkimery
Veteran
Up until flip out LCD models with focus assists viewfinders on video cameras were black & white because the increased contrast helped with focus. Obviously w/a black & white viewfinder dialing in the color temp doesn't help because you can't see color. Shooting a white balance card also means the user does not have to make a subjective decision about what white is on a color viewfinder or color field monitor that may or may not be color accurate and may or may not be calibrated to the current lighting conditions. If you have time and money to color correct in post this is less of an issue but if what you shoot (news for example) gets little to no post processing then you need to be on spot on in the field because there won't be an opportunity down the road to fix it.
To me shooting a white card is a remarkably simple and accurate way to white balancing a camera.
-Andrew
Okay thanks. I don't always want white for my movie projects, and sometimes other colors set mood. I have the Canon T3i, but the other guys I am working with have digital cinema cameras. Maybe they haven't gotten the hang of that yet, since they are learning too, and just use white balance cards, cause it's what they learned online maybe.
I would guess that a basic white balance choice between "the sun" and "light bulb" comes from film. You either get tungsten or daylight balance, then you put some filters on. There is a variation in temperature among filters (like 85, 85A, 85B), but you're pretty stuck with two types of film. For the common consumer (of, I assume, dslrs) a wheel that changes kelvin temperature would be confusing. It seems to me that as long as you're in the ballpark with your white balance, you can tweak it later in post anyway.
It is the method handed down from the days when dialing in color temperature wasn't possible. It started with broadcast tube cameras that needed to be balanced and have their color synced to each other (a three camera broadcast would want all 3 to have exact color match). There weren't any computers in the camera. We still do this today in our broadcast studio.
If you are not shooting a live multi-camera production, then it isn't as critical since you can adjust in post. But since the industry used this method, it is passed on as the way to set white.
maranfilms
Veteran
+1 yup,
As you develop an eye for white balance you will see that shooting a white card is not really necessary, In time it's second nature to access the lighting conditions and set your kelvin as needed. Even in a mix lighting condition your eye will tell you where it needs to be.
As you develop an eye for white balance you will see that shooting a white card is not really necessary, In time it's second nature to access the lighting conditions and set your kelvin as needed. Even in a mix lighting condition your eye will tell you where it needs to be.
Shooter
Veteran
If you mean using a Color Temp Meter...they are hardly cheaper!
Knowing the color temp of sources is essential.
If you mean..using your eye then dialing in a Color Temp....well that takes a very skilled eye to tell what the color temp actually is ...and at best would be a guess.
All lights are different and some locations have massive amounts of mixed color temps. ( "fruit salad"). Checkout your local fast food restaurnt or a supermarket or a nightclub....
Daylight has an incredibly extended range of color temps ( like 4500 - 1000K+). Try and guess that by eye.
Using the camera to set a White Balance has the simple function that it measures the color temp of the light sources to"calculate" what "filter" to apply to the sensor to make white appear as white.
This is a basis ( sensor set up) from which the DP can add and subtract "filters" ( eg gels or dial in color temp settings) as per their preference.
adkimery
Veteran
What is your eye looking at though? The LCD screen on the camera? A field monitor coming from the camera's HDMI out? Unless you calibrate a reliable monitor that's being fed by a reliable source to your current shooting conditions you can't know precisely how the camera is interpreting the light coming through the lens. Not all shooting requires knowing precisely though. You just need to get in the ballpark so it can be tweaked in post.
-Andrew
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
Ding ding ding---was cycling through posts here wondering if someone would bring this up. Yes, this absolutely is the case and shouldn't be discredited. If one is concerned enough about baking in the ultimate color temp (i.e. shooting with a warmer or cooler look than a white balance will deliver by "cheating" via color cards or gel held in front of the lens, like we used to do it before the color cards were invented), then one has to take into account the green/magenta shift as well. If you plan to do any real color correction though, you only need to get the color close enough and leave the rest for post. With multiple cameras it saves time to get them all to a similar color palette to streamling the CC process, but it doesn't have to be the final one. There are political reasons for baking in a look that is extreme enough to defy neutralizing if desired, but they carry risks.
Okay thanks. But sometimes with color cards, we still cannot get the right temperature in each of our cameras to match. I would like to get a camera where I can dial it in manually. Is their any camera around the same price as the T3i, where I can, or not too much higher of a price? Since I am trading in my camera for just the one feature, I hope not to pay too much more. But having to use different colored cards is just more complicated, especially when trying to get my footage to match other cameras, while shooting, since not all the cameras have the same color. My friend's cameras, have to be dialed a little differently to match. So I figure it's best just to get the Kelvin manual option. Or is selling my camera to get on with the Kelvin feature not going to make a difference and it's not much more of an advantage really? I'm not aiming to make the light white, but different colors based on the mood of the scene.
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maranfilms
Veteran
Your looking at the light source, then your looking at your calibrated monitor. If you know the approx kelvin temp for a specific light source, it's not all that hard to dial in the temp if you have actual numbers to do so.
Here's an example: If im shooting tungston at night, I know tungston has a range somewhere in the 2,800-3,500k avg. From here I will fine tune to what looks good on my monitor.
Same goes for daylight, the time of day is CRUCIAL to dialing in an accurate color temp, daylight has a wide range, but if you start around 5,200k go up or down depending on where the sun is, or time of day. I feel instict will guide your eye.
If your not getting the image to where you feel it needs to be, then you tweak color if your camera has the option, (like a gh2). If not, you can use filters, or adjust in post. Like I said, it takes an experienced eye, And it is subjective to a point. I have had cameras with auto white balance that just seemed off compared to setting it manually. Then there's Canon, who I feel has the best auto white balance in the biz.
Of course it gets tricky when you match color temps, but again, experience is where you develop an eye. Heck if you been shooting for many years, and you don't know the avg color temp of the lighting sources you use, somethings wrong
Here's an example: If im shooting tungston at night, I know tungston has a range somewhere in the 2,800-3,500k avg. From here I will fine tune to what looks good on my monitor.
Same goes for daylight, the time of day is CRUCIAL to dialing in an accurate color temp, daylight has a wide range, but if you start around 5,200k go up or down depending on where the sun is, or time of day. I feel instict will guide your eye.
If your not getting the image to where you feel it needs to be, then you tweak color if your camera has the option, (like a gh2). If not, you can use filters, or adjust in post. Like I said, it takes an experienced eye, And it is subjective to a point. I have had cameras with auto white balance that just seemed off compared to setting it manually. Then there's Canon, who I feel has the best auto white balance in the biz.
Of course it gets tricky when you match color temps, but again, experience is where you develop an eye. Heck if you been shooting for many years, and you don't know the avg color temp of the lighting sources you use, somethings wrong