I don't get it

Shawn Philip Nelson

Shawn Philip Nelson

Veteran
So I visited a set today (some friends were crewing on it) and it was more pro than i am usually used to ( a budget around a quarter mil). Anyhow, the sound guy had a great setup, over $25k worth. Sound Devices, Lectrosonics, Comtek, etc. But the thing that threw me for a loop was his mic choice.

This guy had an MKH60 and an MKH50 (respectable choices) and was booming the MKH60 indoors 90% of the time! Wtf? He seemed to really know what he was doing so I asked the boom op and he replied that the mkh50 was "too sensative and picked up too much of the room" and went on about how much better it was to use the mkh60 indoors.

So what gives? I thought Audio 101 of the Idiots Guide to Audio is "Hyper indoors, shotgun outdoors" (barring the obvious exceptions for large interiors). But these were quite house and office interiors.

The mkh60 indoors when you have an mkh50 right next to it seems like a huge freakin mistake, but I didn't want to open my mouth so I figured I'd ask here. Because besides this mic choice, he seemed to really know his sh*t.
 
who told you you cant work shotgun insides - of course you can
and the oposit is trew as well - just finished aday with 150 outside
 
don't forget that is the 'idiots' guide, not the 'people who know their sh1t' guide
:0)

jus kiddin

there are loads of reasons for mic choice, and its never black and white. who is to say he was going for a 'natural sound', ie it can be a style choice. other grey factors include, for example, if the interiors are very well damped (which they tend to be when they are full of film crew) then they dont sound so weird, if you can get very close up to quiet dialogue on a nice voice I sometimes opt for the 416 for proximity (oleg disagrees here, but its all style choice ), if u need the reach shotgun will sound better in damped room, if you need the rejection etc etc.

Outdoors too, i've HAD to use the hyper whilst next the the sea for example. the shot was a talking head but involved tilting the mic halfway through the shot, which sounds like 'sweeping' frequencies with a shotgun, much more neutral on the hyp. a white noise source like the sea will just get louder and quieter when tilting a well designed hyper, with no noticable change in frequency.

the rule 'shotgun outdoors' only assumes you want to reject the atmosphere in favour of the dialogue, which 90% of the time you do. but when you need to hear the atmosphere as part of what you are shooting then you think about what you need from a mics pick up pattern and characteristics.

These rules are good because it gets novices thinking about these factors, but with more understanding and experience of microphones these rules must be (almost) disregarded and use experience instead.
 
This is like the telephone game. The statement comes out: "Rule of thumb; shotgun outside, hyper reverberant inside." but gets repeated without the "rule of thumb" or just called "the rule" and the reverberant often gets dropped.

If the room is pretty dead then a shotgun can work and sometimes is preferred. Low ceilings and easier micing of multiple subjects in quiet environment are other reasons to go with a hyper.

You check out the room and shot requirements and go with the best mic for the situation. Sometimes you literally have to test different mics in a given situation.

MKH50 and 60 huh? Think I might know who that was. :) But the guy I am thinking of uses Lectro ifb not comtek. Was this guy Portland based, blonde hair, first name start with "E"?

Cheers
 
here in sa, the features standard is the cs3. and guys are pretty much using them exclusively, interior and exterior. most big guys also carry 416 and 816, but the cs3 is pretty much making that obsolete.

for some reason hyper's havent really caught on all that well here. its a small industry... strange. in fact, i'm fairly sure im one of the only guys using them in joburg.
 
I recently worked as boom op for a 2-camera "reality-style" production, and HAD to use the MKH60 indoors for extra reach. The video crew had a CU camera and a WS camera rolling at all times, so I had to stay 3' - 6' above the actors heads. At some points, I actually had to tuck the mic up into the lighting grid.

The rooms were well padded with furntiture, carpets, and a big cast and crew, and all worked well. I listened to the boom audio at the show premier, and all was solid.

Alternatively, I used to work at a TV studio that used Schoeps CMC641's w/cut1 filters at ALL times, for every shoot we did. We did LOTS of outdoor interviews, and they always sounded great.

-Vic
 
I still only have a Schoeps CMC641 and I use it for everything (w/BBG and Jammer outside). I have never been unhappy with what I have gotten, but there have been times I wished for more rejection. Someday my CS3e will come to me...
 
Shawn,

My mic choice is always a combination of factors:

1. Location (indoors, outdoors, noise, quiet, reverberant room, etc.)
2. Skill set of my boom op - more often than not, I'm using a converted PA as a boom op, usually one that didn't really want to be holding a heavy stick above their heads for hours and hours... so I go with my most forgiving mics, knowing that I could get much better audio with better mics, if only I had a good boom op.
3. Cooperation level from the DP/Camera/Grip/Gaffer depts. Again, if the cooperation isn't there, then I go with longer reach mics because I'm usually forced farther out of the frame.
4. Finally, I listen. I'm prepared to jump in and in a matter of seconds, swap out a mic. All of my shotguns live in their own blimps. I have 3 AT 8415's with the K-tek rubbers so I can drop a mic in and spin it up on the boom very quickly. As soon as my cart is setup at a location, the boom gets set up in the shooting area (even while sets are being dressed, lights set up, camera locations selected, etc.) Even with the chaos, I can quickly judge what the room needs, and usually have this done well before the first rehearsals have even started.

So, as has been said, there is no hard and fast "rule" just a strong recommendation. :-)

Phil
 
I don't want to search my own posts in the archive just to quote myself over the years... but scooby pretty much said it.

I never said this is a hard 'n fast rule... only a general rule... and in fact I know that I have a LOT of posts which clearly state that TOP LEVEL SHOTGUNS work many interiors WELL.

I also have a hundred posts that suggest that a hyper can work great outdoors. I've talked a hundred people out of an me66 in favor of an Oktava/BBG combo and told them that they will get good results outdoors with a hyper.


Here's a recent thread with this topic and I'm the first reply to the OP:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=102222&highlight=shotgun

The key points to take from this are;

1) that for most interiors a hyper will be better UNLESS you need more reach because the mic must be farther away.

2) only the high-end shotguns work in these situations. A 4073a will disappoint for most interiors where a CS3, MKH60, 416, CK69 will work great... an me66 will be even worse.

Whether a shotgun works well for interiors or not is a function of the polar pattern... and all the guns that have hyper-like polar patterns can work well in many interiors. Notice that a CS3 has a fairly rounded and smooth pattern out front, and virtually no tail... now look at an me66... that pattern looks like a bouquet of flowers out front AND out back... then a 4073a has a long torpedo out front... both those last 2 shotguns will hear every room echo and problem imaginable... so in THOSE cases, to even get away with it... the room has to be big AND good acoustics.

If a shotgun picks up like a hyper then it can be used like a hyper.

Notice that the 416 is called "super-cardioid" pickup pattern on many sites.

The issue is not that simple... but as you'll see me say when this comes up... the shotgun has got to be high-end for interiors. Look at the Schoeps MK41 polar pattern... it's a perfectly tight, nested onion... a smooth bubble that hears equally in all directions... that's why it's a $1500 mic.

Pick-up pattern is the most important spec in my opinion... and that's also what determines where a mic can be used.


Here's me from 2006:

"...a less sensitive gun can work for interiors where a more sensitive gun can't... for example, the 4073a will NOT work in a lot of interiors... the very same interiors where a 416 will sound fine."

And I'm sure I can keep searching and keep finding this same sentiment.
 
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