HVX vs. the Canon XHA1

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The Panasonic HVX200 is not $5995, which you can buy it at B&H for $5299 and Amazon for $5044. Also the Canon XH-A1 is $3699 at B&H. So the price between the 2 cameras isn't a $2000 difference. Both of these places are reputable dealers.
 
Thats right , the differences are much bigger. Compare pricing this way gives you a cam that shoots DV only. If you want to compare pricing in HD, start with a configuration that is capable in shooting 1h continually. So for the A1 you add a $5,- tape and for the HVX the extra P2 cards + P2 store with extra batteries.
 
I find it interesting how people fault someone for having an opinion. Barry clearly stated that the article was his opinion of the cams and he also stated that the conclusion applies to the field he shoots in. The previous responses state that.
The HVX has a bajillion more features and is suited much better to shooting movies than the A1. Plain and Simple. Variable framerates and better audio are a neccessity for most movie shots, as is the 4:2:2 color sampling for Keying. For Events, the A1 is a much less expensive and amazing performing camera. this is what I got out of the review.
Hvx being worshipped? I give credit where credit is due. I do not see the A1 being used in movies such as the Departed, nor the H1. The Hvx is a different beast and I like it a ton, but worship is an insulting implication that infers that I have no basis for my opinion. The HVX is simply a tool I believe is best suited for the independent film projects I am shooting. When something better comes out, I will move on. But that "better Camera" is not the A1.
 
There's too much back-and-forth about the whole bias issue. Everyone who jumps in on either side has something to say to defend "their" camera. I think we shouldn't come into these reviews looking for affirmation that our choice of camera was correct. There's a lot of useful info here; stuff that only you'll never find out on the offical specs. There was a ton of features that I thought the A1 has, but it turned out not to (simultaneous zoom & focus, audio limitation etc.). Did it change my decision to get an A1? Not really. It did help me understand the limitation of the camera so that I won't have to find out what it can't do first hand.
 
Thank you jade.

Let's drop the bias whining and discuss the merits of the cameras please; stay on target.

Thanks !
 
There be a probl'm with the articles section.

If you are using the forum default, try to find post 70. or 60, or 80, etc.

For an explanation, read this "invisible" post in the articles section that you are reading right now. Maybe this is old news, but it's news to me :thumbsup:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=822711&postcount=71

It's post 71 when you link to it, but it's actually 70, and you won't see a 70 anywhere, if you are using the forum default. If you change to 20 posts per page, you won't have 20,40,60, etc.

Jason
 
Thank you Barry for your excellent review. I have rented both the A1 and the HVX for a couple of shoots and think that both cameras are excellent. There is an over 2k price difference when you factor in the 2 or 3 p2 cards you need to keep shooting with HVX. And you also need an assistant to transfer the files while shooting. Recently I was on a 2-camera HVX shoot and the p2 storage wasn't managed perfectly and we ended having to wait for the download to keep shooting. But the film like color, 4 channel audio and 4.2.2 is a definite plus for the HVX. And contrary to the buzz people are shooting documentaries with the HVX. But the canon HDV looks great and I transcode to DVC Pro HD in compressor once I capture HDV in Final Cut Pro to bump up to 4.2.2 and for less generational loss.
Thanks again Barry
Phil
 
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" But the canon HDV looks great and I transcode to DVC Pro HD in compressor once I capture HDV in Final Cut Pro to bump up to 4.2.2 and for less generational loss.
Thanks again Barry"

You can take a 4:1:1 and bump it up to a 4:2:2 ?? How does this work?
 
HDV is 4:2:0 out to tape, but captured in-camera as 4:2:2. I think what he might be doing is capturing uncompressed footage from analog component and compressing to DVCProHD.
 
Ok, just read through the article.

I've been waiting FOREVER for this Barry and Jarred! Thanks for getting it to us. :)

What a great article Barry, great job. You pointed out many differences between the two cameras and I found it to be very informative.

I have used the HVX and enjoyed it but I have used the A1 and love it. But, I don't need most of what technically lacks in the A1 compared to the HVX, I just need that great looking image that the A1 gives me for a couple grand less.

Again, thanks for the write up Barry. As always, excellent job.

Jay
 
PaPa said:
" But the canon HDV looks great and I transcode to DVC Pro HD in compressor once I capture HDV in Final Cut Pro to bump up to 4.2.2 and for less generational loss.
Thanks again Barry"

You can take a 4:1:1 and bump it up to a 4:2:2 ?? How does this work?
Click to expand...

There is some theory that if you take 1080 footage at 4:2:0 and downsample it to 720P you will efectively get 4:2:2 footage. it has to do with the way the colors are sampled. I do not know if this is 100% true or not. It may hold water but I think it also depends highly on the method of downsampling used.

Anyone want to elaborate on this for me?
 
coffee said:
But, I don't need most of what technically lacks in the A1 compared to the HVX, I just need that great looking image that the A1 gives me for a couple grand less.
Click to expand...
That is exactly the point, and if it suits your needs it's an excellent product. If you don't need the other stuff, why pay for it? The A1 is a breakthrough at its price point, and I think it's the best HDV camcorder on the market (with the caveat that I haven't used a V1U yet).
 
icicle22 said:
There is some theory that if you take 1080 footage at 4:2:0 and downsample it to 720P you will efectively get 4:2:2 footage.
Click to expand...
That wouldn't work; there's not enough detail difference for it to matter.

It matters on 1440x1080 taken down to 720x480, as there's enough of a horizontal pixel difference that you can actually make up the half-sampled subsample. Same with vertical.

But in HDV you're looking at 1440 to 1280, which is practically no difference, so you're not going to gain anything horizontally. And vertically there's some difference, but no HDV camcorder saturates all 1080 lines with detail, they normally deliver around 800 lines of detail vertically, so ... no, converting to 720p isn't going to give you any measurable increase in color information. But converting to SD, yes, it will take you up to something approaching 4:4:4.
 
Barry_Green said:
That is exactly the point, and if it suits your needs it's an excellent product. If you don't need the other stuff, why pay for it? The A1 is a breakthrough at its price point, and I think it's the best HDV camcorder on the market (with the caveat that I haven't used a V1U yet).
Click to expand...

I think the H1 is a better overall camera as far as flexibility and easily accessible features go. I want all gain settings, wb settings and audio settings right at my finger tips. The bang for your buck is much less but I think the extras are worth it to me.

Also...I compared footage I shot with the H1 and the A1 in the same lighting and environment and I still think the H1 produces a sharper image. Call me crazy! And this is with the 16x manual lens too! I just love that thing. It has a more "film-like" contrast to it that the other HD lenses for the H1 or the A1 doesn't quite grab.
 
I'm pretty sure it equals DVCPRO HD 720 4:2:2 because the format is actually 960 horizontal.
Click to expand...
That makes no sense though. The difference between 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 is strictly in the vertical direction. Whether DVCPRO-HD 720 was 960 wide or 1280 wide or whatever, the chroma sampling horizontally between 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 is the same. It's in the vertical direction that they differ.

And in the vertical, yes there's technically 50% more "space" in 1080 vs. 720, but in reality these cameras can't fill that space, so you get maybe 800 lines max. The difference between taking 800 lines of detail and resizing it to 720 is not going to come within a hundred miles of closing the gap between chroma-every-line and chroma-every-other-line.

Then, to further compound the issue, there's the hassle of converting interlaced chroma to progressive. Night and day difference there. Unless you're referring to 24F footage, which may actually use progressive 4:2:0, but that means maybe 650 lines vertically instead of the 800. You won't pick up a single bit of increased chroma res converting 650-lines-of-detail 24F to 720-lines-of-storage 720p. Doesn't work.

So no, that theory can be absolutely flatly rejected. Converting HDV 1080i to 720p is not going to give you anything approaching 4:2:2.
 
Elton said:
I'm pretty sure it equals DVCPRO HD 720 4:2:2 because the format is actually 960 horizontal.
Click to expand...


Barlow,
if that is indeed true, how do you convert it? I know, I know......using compressor on a mac. Any idea what the settings are so I can try to emulate that on some lowly PC software?

Peace!
 
Finally got around to reading this article... didn't realize it was up! Thanks for the write up, and I think for the time being I am leaning toward the HVX. After shooting with it this weekend, I have to say I love the images, and I love the tapeless workflow, and for a feature I want to shoot this summer, I think I will go HVX...
 
Thank You Barry for your insight -
my 2 cents -

my professor told me this before I purchase my A-1

try the camera out first and then decide what works for you -
the cost and limit of P2 was a deciding factor for me, especially since I want to shoot a Doc in HD which means on hand to have at instances long run times on a medium suitable for archiving purposes.

In fact I spent a whole month with the HVX and called it my baby to realize at I was truly in love with the Z1 - mostly for the LCD and tape workflow and archiving.

but then when I got my A1 - I no longer was messing around with any other camera.

but the point that I am eluding to is that: when 16g and 32g cards are available and affordable, there is PROBBALY GOING TO BE A NEW CAMERA OUT that will do and be more than what the HVX and A1 is doing right now at an affordable price. but that is in the future.

but for now, I need to shoot 1080 @ 24 for with long run-times with in my small budget. And even though the manual lens and and stock color on the HVX is great, I do not need the manual zoom and can tweak the A-1's color for what I am doing.
at 1080 on P2 is just not possible.

I am wondering what will NAB bring this year for HD, something good I think at a very good price.

Technology is a *****
 
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