How well would the Black Magic Cinema Camera (BMCC) work for making documentaries?

[steve4505]

Like many of us (if not most of us) I’ve been reading about the Black Magic Cinema Camera with great interest. I know it is a Beta and many things are hard to tell at this point, but as a concept would a cinema camera work well for the type of documentaries I will be doing?

I am a fledging/aspiring documentary film-maker who for several years regularly works/volunteers as a camera and a 30’ CamMate jib operator. I work alongside a variety of professionals with professional gear owned by the large church I belong to where we film the services/concerts/special events. I’ve also done a number of side projects with friends, and I know I have a lot to learn.

I really love filming just about anything. Of course flying a jib around is a tremendous amount of fun for me. :tongue: I pretty much only use the manual controls when I film.

I currently already have a great job M-Th, but I am hoping to develop a part time/second career in making video biographies. It may not be exclusively biographies, because making an indie would be huge fun too. However, I am currently mostly interested in filming sit down interviews inside, on green screen, or interviews outside (hopefully during the day when there is lots of light but you never know), with nature type of landmarks, foliage etc. I live in Arizona (USA) with a great variety of scenery which could make excellent backdrops. I will also be shooting in a variety of countries (in Africa and Europe) and I like the small form factor (which should not draw too much unwanted attention and is readably portable). I plan to have just myself and my wife (or hired sound guy) as the crew so hopefully you get the picture. I already have an new Macbook Pro, FCPX, and an iPad II (if that matters).

I don’t want it to be just a hobby, but I probably won’t spend all my time trying to find clients either. I am saving about $10k total to spend on a variety of professional gear very well discussed in the various forums here. Of that amount I was hoping to spend around $5k on a camera. I am not in a big rush because I want to save up for everything I purchase so I was thinking a camera purchase sometime early next year. However, after viewing and reading everything I can get my hands on the BMCC looks like it should suit me and I could switch things around and make the camera my first purchase towards the end of this year. Also, I’ve read it is not a “run and gun” type camera, but I am sure what that really means (especially if I am only looking at sub 10k cameras). Any and all comments/opinions would be helpful. Thanks!

 

[custerc]

Well, as a documentary shooter, here are the three biggest problems I see with it, with the caveat that the thing isn't actually OUT yet so no one really knows what the deal is.

(1) It only has an internal battery, and that only lasts 90 minutes. Now, I'm sure there will be external batteries you can connect, but we'll have to wait and see how ergonomic/simple that is. My fear is that it's going to be a pain, another loose cable to deal with, increase the bulk of the camera, etc. But we'll have to see. Keep in mind though that if you're running around Africa with it, you may not always have access to an electrical outlet (or even electricity at all) every 90 minutes.

(2) RAW footage takes up a ton of space. Like, 100s of GBs per hour of video. That's not so big a deal for fiction filmmaking, but for documentary where you might need to shoot 10, 20, 30 hours of footage to get 1 hour of final film, it's going to add up VERY fast and you could end up spending a fortune on storage. Now, the Blackmagic can also shoot ProRes, which comes in more manageable (but still large) sizes, but even that is going to use up a lot more space than something like AVCHD. (It also looks better, but if you're going to be on the road shooting a lot, storage space may be a bigger concern than marginal improvements in image quality and flexibility).

It sounds like you've got the right equipment for transfering footage fast though, as the BMCC has a thunderbolt port...that could be very useful in the field if you want to dump footage onto your laptop fast so you can keep shooting.

(3) The small sensor size means a big crop factor (for some lenses), and less impressive low light performance. I'm not sure what sort of lenses you have, but for example if you've got full frame Canon lenses (the ones with the red dot), then those will have a 2x crop factor on the BMCC, meaning your 50mm is now 100mm, your 25mm is now a 50mm, etc. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but if you want to do handheld shooting you'll need wide lenses, and it sounds like it's going to be a bit hard to find really wide lenses for this camera.

With regards to low light, this could also be an issue if you like to shoot with natural light, and are used to the low light performance of something with a bigger sensor like the 5d mk2. The BMCC will not be that good. That said, it also has much better dynamic range, which means you can get more "natural looking" shots in darkness. Check out the test footage that's been released and see what you think of it. For me, I shoot in a lot of really low light situations, so I'd be a bit worried about it, but you may not need to be.

----
It definitely isn't a run-and-gun camera in the sense that it's not perfect to just pick up and film with. And some pro users may also be annoyed that a lot of the settings are in the menus, so you can tweak them with buttons/dials while you're shooting, which means you need to be more careful to set up your shots, you can't just pick it up and start shooting. That might matter to you, or it might not. It depends on the kinds of things you want to shoot.

If you're not in a rush and you've got $10k, I would recommend waiting a while, at least until the fall when the BMCC has been in the field for a few months, and we know what the Panasonic GH3 is gonna look like, and maybe we'll be hearing rumors about other cameras too. I have to believe/hope that the "big guys" are going to want to respond to this and that that will give us even more options.

If it helps, I'm looking to sell one of our cameras and upgrade after we finish our current doc, and I've been looking carefully at the BMCC too. If it had replacable batteries like any other camera, I think that would be enough for me to consider to preordering one, and deal with the storage/light/crop factor issues later, b/c the camera has so much else going for it. But if I have to strap a battery onto the side of it to use it for more than 90 minutes, that may destroy its low-profile form factor and make it much less convenient to use in doc situations where you're out in the boonies with no power. We'll have to see what solutions they come up with for external power. But as it is, I'm gonna wait a bit and see how this fares in the field, how the new GH3 looks in the fall, and whether or not Canon, Sony, or Nikon have made any indications they're working on a CONSUMER video DSLR (as opposed to the $15,000 1D C).

 

[steve4505]

Well, as a documentary shooter, here are the three biggest problems I see with it, with the caveat that the thing isn't actually OUT yet so no one really knows what the deal is.

(1) It only has an internal battery, and that only lasts 90 minutes. Now, I'm sure there will be external batteries you can connect, but we'll have to wait and see how ergonomic/simple that is. My fear is that it's going to be a pain, another loose cable to deal with, increase the bulk of the camera, etc. But we'll have to see. Keep in mind though that if you're running around Africa with it, you may not always have access to an electrical outlet (or even electricity at all) every 90 minutes.

(2) RAW footage takes up a ton of space. Like, 100s of GBs per hour of video. That's not so big a deal for fiction filmmaking, but for documentary where you might need to shoot 10, 20, 30 hours of footage to get 1 hour of final film, it's going to add up VERY fast and you could end up spending a fortune on storage. Now, the Blackmagic can also shoot ProRes, which comes in more manageable (but still large) sizes, but even that is going to use up a lot more space than something like AVCHD. (It also looks better, but if you're going to be on the road shooting a lot, storage space may be a bigger concern than marginal improvements in image quality and flexibility).

It sounds like you've got the right equipment for transfering footage fast though, as the BMCC has a thunderbolt port...that could be very useful in the field if you want to dump footage onto your laptop fast so you can keep shooting.

(3) The small sensor size means a big crop factor (for some lenses), and less impressive low light performance. I'm not sure what sort of lenses you have, but for example if you've got full frame Canon lenses (the ones with the red dot), then those will have a 2x crop factor on the BMCC, meaning your 50mm is now 100mm, your 25mm is now a 50mm, etc. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but if you want to do handheld shooting you'll need wide lenses, and it sounds like it's going to be a bit hard to find really wide lenses for this camera.

With regards to low light, this could also be an issue if you like to shoot with natural light, and are used to the low light performance of something with a bigger sensor like the 5d mk2. The BMCC will not be that good. That said, it also has much better dynamic range, which means you can get more "natural looking" shots in darkness. Check out the test footage that's been released and see what you think of it. For me, I shoot in a lot of really low light situations, so I'd be a bit worried about it, but you may not need to be.

----
It definitely isn't a run-and-gun camera in the sense that it's not perfect to just pick up and film with. And some pro users may also be annoyed that a lot of the settings are in the menus, so you can tweak them with buttons/dials while you're shooting, which means you need to be more careful to set up your shots, you can't just pick it up and start shooting. That might matter to you, or it might not. It depends on the kinds of things you want to shoot.

If you're not in a rush and you've got $10k, I would recommend waiting a while, at least until the fall when the BMCC has been in the field for a few months, and we know what the Panasonic GH3 is gonna look like, and maybe we'll be hearing rumors about other cameras too. I have to believe/hope that the "big guys" are going to want to respond to this and that that will give us even more options.

If it helps, I'm looking to sell one of our cameras and upgrade after we finish our current doc, and I've been looking carefully at the BMCC too. If it had replacable batteries like any other camera, I think that would be enough for me to consider to preordering one, and deal with the storage/light/crop factor issues later, b/c the camera has so much else going for it. But if I have to strap a battery onto the side of it to use it for more than 90 minutes, that may destroy its low-profile form factor and make it much less convenient to use in doc situations where you're out in the boonies with no power. We'll have to see what solutions they come up with for external power. But as it is, I'm gonna wait a bit and see how this fares in the field, how the new GH3 looks in the fall, and whether or not Canon, Sony, or Nikon have made any indications they're working on a CONSUMER video DSLR (as opposed to the $15,000 1D C).

Lots of great points. Thanks!

1) Battery: I was reading John Brawley's comments and he was saying a couple hours on the internal. Like you said its not very much. The thing is I don't envision being very far from an automobile in my most remote/rural locations for very long so I would have access to a very nice car battery so I could be tethered to that (or have the back-up power source charging on that) its pretty much continuous power. The weight and size of these external batteries, there relatively short lifespans (since they are so pricey $100+) and like you said having a strange battery strapped to the side would draw more attention (maybe a cord into my backpack) are all definite drawbacks to this design. Maybe I should be optimistic in an external battery which is much smaller and lightweight than those I've seen out now like the Tekkeons are.

2) Shooting in RAW: Yeah storage could be big issue like travelling around with multiple 3TB hard drives. Then all those should be backed up. Thinking about it though I wouldn't necessarily always need to be shooting in RAW. It would be nice to be, but some stuff that probably would be B-roll could be in the ProRes and I am sure that could save some space.

3) Low Light: Yeah I am disappointed with that, but its a bit of reality with this thing based on the price. I could just plan on using an LED to light, but that's not something I generally like to do since it reduces the intimacy of the moment.

On the run-and gun thing; I guess this is something I don't understand. I am trying to think what I would be fiddling with/tweaking on a pro camera while shooting that I need a button or dial for. It should have the ability to adjust focus, iris, and zoom on the lenses already. If you are changing your ISO yeah it would be in the menu but 10 seconds to change that should be expected since that's going to change/switch/cut your shot anyways. Same with most anything else that I can think of. The menu is very user friendly so making pretty much any adjustment shouldn't take more than 10 seconds. From what I've seen on all the cameras I've looked at this one should be much much faster to change something than they are. The only thing I can think of is if I was switching from automatic to manual modes, but I don't see where it does. What am I missing?

I am willing to wait, just hoping the price isn't going to jump or software etc is no longer included. The package is very appealing right now for sure! LOL

 

[custerc]

On the run-and gun thing; I guess this is something I don't understand. I am trying to think what I would be fiddling with/tweaking on a pro camera while shooting that I need a button or dial for. It should have the ability to adjust focus, iris, and zoom on the lenses already. If you are changing your ISO yeah it would be in the menu but 10 seconds to change that should be expected since that's going to change/switch/cut your shot anyways. Same with most anything else that I can think of. The menu is very user friendly so making pretty much any adjustment shouldn't take more than 10 seconds. From what I've seen on all the cameras I've looked at this one should be much much faster to change something than they are. The only thing I can think of is if I was switching from automatic to manual modes, but I don't see where it does. What am I missing?

Well, the easiest and most common situation to illustrate this with is a sudden move from indoor to outdoor, where the amount and color of light changes rapidly. If you have a prosumer camcorder, and your subject suddenly runs inside, you can follow them and make that switch pretty quickly -- there's a little switch to turn up the gain (i.e., ISO) and you can have two white balance settings so if you're prepared properly, you just flick two little switches as you're running into/out the door and no one even notices the difference. On the BMCC, both of those settings are in the menus, I think, so you'd have to stop shooting, open the menus and reset both things before you could keep shooting. If you're good with the camera, it'd probably take 10-20 seconds. That could be totally inconsequential, or it could cause you to miss the most crucial ten seconds of your film. Depends what you're shooting.

Also, I suppose you could use old Nikons with adapters, but Canon lenses generally don't have iris controls on the lens, that can only be done from within the camera. So that's another thing that could slow you down in a situation like this; even on a DSLR, all you have to to is quickly spin the little dial on the back to adjust the iris, but opening the menu to do that on the BMCC could cause you to miss something.

COULD, of course, is the operative word there. Whether or not it WILL depends very much on what sort of thing you're shooting.

 

[steve4505]

Well, the easiest and most common situation to illustrate this with is a sudden move from indoor to outdoor, where the amount and color of light changes rapidly. If you have a prosumer camcorder, and your subject suddenly runs inside, you can follow them and make that switch pretty quickly -- there's a little switch to turn up the gain (i.e., ISO) and you can have two white balance settings so if you're prepared properly, you just flick two little switches as you're running into/out the door and no one even notices the difference. On the BMCC, both of those settings are in the menus, I think, so you'd have to stop shooting, open the menus and reset both things before you could keep shooting. If you're good with the camera, it'd probably take 10-20 seconds. That could be totally inconsequential, or it could cause you to miss the most crucial ten seconds of your film. Depends what you're shooting.

Also, I suppose you could use old Nikons with adapters, but Canon lenses generally don't have iris controls on the lens, that can only be done from within the camera. So that's another thing that could slow you down in a situation like this; even on a DSLR, all you have to to is quickly spin the little dial on the back to adjust the iris, but opening the menu to do that on the BMCC could cause you to miss something.

COULD, of course, is the operative word there. Whether or not it WILL depends very much on what sort of thing you're shooting.

Yeah I got you on the presets on the gain would be nice to have toggle switch for. I got that point and I had no idea about the lack of an iris setting on the Cannon lenses. That's much more likely to happen. When I fly the jib its not uncommon at all for me to bump the iris a stop or 2 between the front and back of the stage as I am flying around (generally broadcasting too). Sometimes its stuff like this that bugs me because I did not know about it and its not what I want to do. No wonder there is so much concern about the type of lenses.

BTW are you the guy who is shooting a documentary where you have to be somewhat secret about it? I was thinking I read your earlier posts and found them useful. Mostly about how few people as a shooter want to attract attention to themselves in a place they are not familiar with well.

 

[adkimery]

When I think of run-n-gun I imagine a boy scout type situation where you are totally self supported and self contained. Pro cameras for broadcast will have external controls for things like WB, WB presets, audio levels, audio channel assignments, audio monitoring, gain, filter wheels, zebras, focus assist, footage review/playback etc.,. They'll also have points to mount/secure microphones, receivers for wireless mics and on-camera lights as well as locking connections for cables (XLR, BNC, etc.,). The self contained nature also adds ruggedness so if you are hustling with the camera (ex. chasing down a suspect and hopping fences with the officers on COPS) or jockeying your way through a crowd you don't have to worry about your camera + accessories falling apart on you.

Something else to think about, and this is true for DSLRs as well but not quite as much, is ergonomics and camera stability. The BMCC is not going to be a pleasant camera to shoot hand held with (at least the DSLRs have grips built in) especially if you have it rigged up for a doc (shotgun mic, wireless receiver for lav, maybe an on-camera light, etc.,) which means you'll need a cage and rails for handles and possibly a matte box for filters. Depending on how it is setup the rear of the camera might be blocked which means you'll need an outboard monitor or EVF. All of this adds cost, time and complexity to the setup.

That's not to say that you shouldn't get the BMCC or anything like that. I'm just throwing out some potential hurdles that might need to be overcome.


-Andrew

 

[custerc]

BTW are you the guy who is shooting a documentary where you have to be somewhat secret about it? I was thinking I read your earlier posts and found them useful. Mostly about how few people as a shooter want to attract attention to themselves in a place they are not familiar with well.

Yeah, I'm shooting a doc about a fairly sensitive subject in China, so we have to be a bit careful about it, especially when shooting in public. I prefer to stay really low profile if I can, and shoot with something like a DSLR with very very minimal if any add-on gear. Police don't tend to think twice about DSLRs, which are everywhere, and which most of them think of as stills cameras. I think you might be able to pass the Blackmagic off as a stills camera too, at least in some situations where people aren't paying much attention...

 

[steve4505]

When I think of run-n-gun I imagine a boy scout type situation where you are totally self supported and self contained. Pro cameras for broadcast will have external controls for things like WB, WB presets, audio levels, audio channel assignments, audio monitoring, gain, filter wheels, zebras, focus assist, footage review/playback etc.,. They'll also have points to mount/secure microphones, receivers for wireless mics and on-camera lights as well as locking connections for cables (XLR, BNC, etc.,). The self contained nature also adds ruggedness so if you are hustling with the camera (ex. chasing down a suspect and hopping fences with the officers on COPS) or jockeying your way through a crowd you don't have to worry about your camera + accessories falling apart on you.

Something else to think about, and this is true for DSLRs as well but not quite as much, is ergonomics and camera stability. The BMCC is not going to be a pleasant camera to shoot hand held with (at least the DSLRs have grips built in) especially if you have it rigged up for a doc (shotgun mic, wireless receiver for lav, maybe an on-camera light, etc.,) which means you'll need a cage and rails for handles and possibly a matte box for filters. Depending on how it is setup the rear of the camera might be blocked which means you'll need an outboard monitor or EVF. All of this adds cost, time and complexity to the setup.

That's not to say that you shouldn't get the BMCC or anything like that. I'm just throwing out some potential hurdles that might need to be overcome.


-Andrew

The audio adjustment parts I think could be about as well handled on a touchscreen, zebras I would either keep on or off but I guess if its a touch situation I might like a button (but probably not), the white balance presets and the gain toggles I'd prefer not have in some sub-menu somewhere. You could have some type of key/hot button pad for this thing but that's another loose wire. Your point about all the loose wires is a solid concern. They can snag on things or people/foliage can pull on them and I see that as a negative also. Also, yeah I've never thought about running/jumping with my camera (you never know) . I agree with you too about the accessories (i.e. microphones, wireless receiver, on-camera light), but that would be the same with the run and guns pretty much too (no way around most of those yet). I probably would not bring out that type of gear unless I was indoors or someplace I felt safe and welcome, besides I am old enough where I can't run too fast. I could get ambient sounds with someone else discreetly holding a Zoom/Tascam. I don't want to do man on the (busy) street type interviews because there are so many problems associated with that. The matt box brings up the lack of an internal ND which is another thing I would have liked to have that is on the Panasonic AZ HPx300P I mostly use now (but I don't own). You've cleared a lot of my confusion what could be some of the pro's and cons of the BMCC.

As far as the form factor, I personally don't like any of the hand-held options. I much prefer a tripod or a crane. I'd love to invent some type of anti-gravity and gyro device, because even 3lbs gets heavy after a while. I often carry around a light weight tripod on my travels and even that is tiring on long days of touring.

 

[adkimery]

You've cleared a lot of my confusion what could be some of the pro's and cons of the BMCC.

That's what the forums are for. :beer:

If the BMCC stays this popular once it starts shipping I'm sure we'll see a lot of third party solutions and inventive workarounds to make the camera at least serviceable in a variety of situations (much like we have seen w/the DSLRs). Of course those solutions are going to cost money which should be factored in when budgeting for a camera.

As far as the form factor, I personally don't like any of the hand-held options. I much prefer a tripod or a crane. I'd love to invent some type of anti-gravity and gyro device, because even 3lbs gets heavy after a while. I often carry around a light weight tripod on my travels and even that is tiring on long days of touring.

Have you looked at some camera stabilizers that suspend the camera or distribute some of the weight to a belt?


-Andrew

 

[steve4505]

That's what the forums are for. :beer:

Have you looked at some camera stabilizers that suspend the camera or distribute some of the weight to a belt?

-Andrew

I saw one that was similar to the Easyrig 300, but I've not seen a review from anyone (probably because at $3182 not too many have them). The lightest weight model is almost 7 lbs in it self and doesn't look to travel friendly. I do like the idea and I am going to search this forum for a review. The DV EngRig is similar to the Edelkrone Pocket Rig http://www.thebelgianvfxguy.com/2012/02/review-edelkrone-pocket-rig.html#update and it looks like a better build. I need to see if there is reviews on the DV EngRig too. I agree for sure there is going to be more options once the BMCC ships.

 

[kgimedia]

Well, the easiest and most common situation to illustrate this with is a sudden move from indoor to outdoor, where the amount and color of light changes rapidly. If you have a prosumer camcorder, and your subject suddenly runs inside, you can follow them and make that switch pretty quickly -- there's a little switch to turn up the gain (i.e., ISO) and you can have two white balance settings so if you're prepared properly, you just flick two little switches as you're running into/out the door and no one even notices the difference. On the BMCC, both of those settings are in the menus, I think, so you'd have to stop shooting, open the menus and reset both things before you could keep shooting. If you're good with the camera, it'd probably take 10-20 seconds. That could be totally inconsequential, or it could cause you to miss the most crucial ten seconds of your film. Depends what you're shooting.

If you are shooting RAW can you not White Balance in post?

 

[Michael Bergstrom]

For the last couple years (and on the show I'm currently working on) we shoot Sony ex1s and ex3 as a primary camera. They are highly weather resistant, good battery life, excellent image quality and don't necessary need a rig to use. For the interviews, we use a canon 5d II or Sony fs100. The dslr is nice for interviews because of the dof, and non intimidating form factor. The ex cameras are nice because of their focus peaking, real controls, form factor and the ability to have a lot of things in focus. I do have a black magic on order, and hope to experiment on this show once it gets in. I do not see it as a doc camera, but the RED cameras weren't built for it either and people still use them for docs.

 

[Danny1280]

Here's an idea I floated on the BMC forum, and was flattered that Barry Green was considering similar:

BMCC for interviews, beauty shots, b-roll that allows for setup, tripod, etc.
HPX250 for run & gun.

Go with pro-res or dnxhd for the BMCC and transcode to match from the HPX250.
So you have two tools to cover different tasks (rather than using them simultaneously for 2-cameras at the same time).
And you're in a 10 bit 422 space on your timeline--all broadcast spec.

I think people might be subconsciously trained to accept the mixing of shallow and deep DOF in one film if they are different types of shots.
And then you're not dependent on the BMCC for run and gun situations.

 

[unadog]

As far as the form factor, I personally don't like any of the hand-held options. I much prefer a tripod or a crane. I'd love to invent some type of anti-gravity and gyro device, because even 3lbs gets heavy after a while. I often carry around a light weight tripod on my travels and even that is tiring on long days of touring.

I just bought one of these Sony units used for under $300. They run about $750 new at B&H:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-VCTSP1BP/





The monopod is incredibly light. It will tilt but not pan - basically you pan by turning your body. There are adjustible straps on the left & right that clip at 3 different levels on the vest, and 4 levels on the monopod. It is very stable.

The counterweight is preset, with only an On or OFF, which is too bad. But otherwise it is a very nice, light, simple unit that is not too conspicous in cooler weather. (The vest would obviously look a little weird on the beach.)

Michael