How to shoot a movie with just a naked camcorder mic??

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

Actually I believe it's 23 minutes before there is any dialog.

The quote he was referring to is about dialog not "sound". 20 min with out sound and the audience would walk out also.

Modern audiences usually demand both. But historically there never really was picture with out sound. Silent movies weren't silent they just didn't have sync dialog. Even mimes usually perform with music. Radio however was only sound and did a LOT of drama and comedy for thirty plus years till TV pretty much killed it in the US. England still does radio drama.

Kill Bill 2 has about 5 min with essentially no visuals and nobody walked out of that either.

I didn't say silent either. I indicated, and since I didn't watch the clock, that 10 minutes... ok, I take your 23 minutes, of sound effects and foley, which would not require the same production capture that 'dialog' without ADR would.

I've only watched "Kill Bill 2" once, so, I'd have to look at where there's 5 minutes of black screen, or mostly black screen, or take your word for it. But where is that sort of sequence. At the beginning as in "There Will be Blood"? Or somewhere else? At the moment, I drawing a total blank on all of KB-2...

 

[ChrisHurn]

man you guys really dwell into the negative side of things -.-' and i know you will be like 'oh its reality' because thats what you think. blah haha ill get my own style in sound, see if i like it and if i do ill go with it and become successful
thanks.
and im not trying to be harsh or 'getting off easy' or whatever because you gotta have a positive aspect on things.
aright guys, i hope you wont dwell on the negatives and i hope you start in the positive.
haha peace out.

iFilm7,

Not sure where you're getting the negativity from. A lot of these guys are telling you to go for it with what you've got! If you can't afford a mic but want to make a movie -- make that movie.

The advice here is in your best interest. If you want to make a film with just the camcorder mic, you have to realize that it may sound horrible. That's just the truth. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't go out and make the movie anyway. Sometimes having technical limitations brings out more creativity. I'm sure you'll find a way to make it work.

Many of the great directors working today started off with crappy gear, without microphones at all. Eventually they practiced and got ready for their first feature film, or whatever, and by that time they were ready for the other gear.

So don't see it as negative advice. Just realize you're talking to a lot of guys who do audio for a living and take it very seriously (as they should).

A lot of the advice here is a lot more honest and in depth than the stuff you will get told in film school, should you decide to go.

Bottom line is - make your movies. Get better than everybody else. Use what you have. It's good to know that you can get some great advice on mics when the time comes for you to want to buy one for your filmmaking.

On Robert Rodriguez's feature El mariachi - he recorded the audio for each scene right after the actual take, in a different room with a tape deck. Then he had to sync it all up later. That's a lot of work - but it's possible! If you have the drive, and you are passionate about filmmaking just go out there and make it up as you go along. You'll find what works and what doesn't. And if you need help along the way, you've got it. Telling a great story is a hundred times more important for you right now than any piece of technology.

Good luck!

 

[JordanBlock]

Clearly we are all deluded for letting silly things like physics have any impact on how we record sound.

It's great to have a positive attitude, and I'm glad this thread hasn't gotten you down, but that's not going to teach you how to be a filmmaker, so get out in the world and shoot something!

We're not here to dump on people's dreams (I know, it's hard to believe sometimes.) We're here because we're not unlike you. We like having a part in telling a story and sharing that with others. We're on this board to help, to save people from making common mistakes that many of us have made in the past - be they bad technique or poor gear purchases. We do, however, tell it like it is.

Sound guys tend get a lot of crap and little praise, so we can get a little gruff sometimes.

Go shoot stuff already!

 

[Seo]

iFilm7, it's good to see you again. Remember me?

What all these guys are saying is absolutely correct, and I don't think they're trying to be negative. Going back to your original question, it's not possible to record good audio with a built-in mic, for way too many reasons. You can, like people have said before, shoot silent films or ADR everything, but without a mic to do THAT, you have no audio.

So take it from someone you've known before and know isn't just trying to get you down. Find some way to boom a mic so that it'll follow your actor and is in close.

 

[kgimedia]

I have spent many years honing my ear. I was a working professional for many years as a live sound engineer and have worked off and on inside recording studios. I hate bad sound. If the visual are 50% 0 IRE (Black) and 50% 100 IRE (White), as in half pixels white half black, and you have a great soundtrack you can get people to watch it. If you have 10,000K of 3D movie madness and white noise for audio it will be unwatchable in seconds.

With all of that said I was once a poor student and could not afford "Professional". In those days I found a cheap little product that made a remarkable difference. I had to say all of that because my solution is completely against the recommendation that is "Best" or "Most Reliable" or "Professional". While it is not any of those things it is much better then On Camera.

Products like the Audio-Technica ATR 35S (wired Lavalier) are extremely cheap. They can be had for as little as $20. Comes with a 20 foot cable. Another $20 should get you another 20 feet. So, for less then you might spend on Pizza for the cast and crew, you can get better sound up to 20-40 feet away from camera, hidden, and flexible. Please don't ask to see pictures of the dollar store fishing rod "boom pole". Photo was analog and expensive back then and I still had to buy that Pizza.

 

[gco]

Credit to MAINSTREETPROD for the following excellent example of exactly what the pros are talking about.
As they say: "Seeing is Believing"

 

[Noiz2]

I didn't say silent either. I indicated, and since I didn't watch the clock, that 10 minutes... ok, I take your 23 minutes, of sound effects and foley, which would not require the same production capture that 'dialog' without ADR would.

I've only watched "Kill Bill 2" once, so, I'd have to look at where there's 5 minutes of black screen, or mostly black screen, or take your word for it. But where is that sort of sequence. At the beginning as in "There Will be Blood"? Or somewhere else? At the moment, I drawing a total blank on all of KB-2...

Your sounding defensive but I was agreeing with you. I know it's around 23 minutes because I know the crew that did it, I wasn't watching the clock either.


The sequence when she is buried alive and we are in the coffin with her. Other than a few flashes of a lighter it's basically a radio play. I'm completely guessing at the five minutes it might have been two or eight, I do remember being struck by how long he kept it black in the theatre and nobody got antsy.

My point, and I think yours, is that there is essentially no films / videos that work with out sound. You can have no dialog and you can have no picture (to some extent) but there is always some sound.

Just though of another film with little or no dialog, "The Triplets of Belleville". There may be one or two lines I can't remember, but that is it - 90 min and no dialog.

 

[Noiz2]

First off I think realistic would be more accurate than negative. Most people have said go for it and that is pretty positive. They have also said that you onboard mic is a limitation and that with that equipment you are not going to breakdown the doors of Hollywood and become a star. That isn't negative it's realistic. If you go into this thinking your going to take Hollywood by storm with this set up you will become negative. Everyone started off with training wheels, but your not going to compete in the Tour de France with training wheels. It's just realistic.

Now if you really want to work in the industry... You are going to have to redefine "negative". You will find some very nice people in the film industry and you will also find those that throw furniture. And the ones who are often the harshest folks around are the ones you have to play nice with or or not work at all. If you can't take a couple of months of 18-20 hour days and then having a truck load of angst dumped on you and not take it personally and let it just roll off. Well you might want to reconsider your career path. Because if your working in the big time I can guarantee something very close to that above is going to happen and probably more than once. And if you get pouty about it you won't have a job the next day. That is not negative it's just reality. The flip (positive) side is that 90% of the time your getting paid to do what you love and what can be better than that!

man you guys really dwell into the negative side of things -.-' and i know you will be like 'oh its reality' because thats what you think. blah haha ill get my own style in sound, see if i like it and if i do ill go with it and become successful
thanks.
and im not trying to be harsh or 'getting off easy' or whatever because you gotta have a positive aspect on things.
aright guys, i hope you wont dwell on the negatives and i hope you start in the positive.
haha peace out.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

My point, and I think yours, is that there is essentially no films / videos that work with out sound. You can have no dialog and you can have no picture (to some extent) but there is always some sound.

Ok, I vaguely recall the coffin scene... in both cases there is something compelling going on, which keeps the view/listener's interest, will she get out of the coffin, will he get out of the mine...

 

[Noiz2]

Credit to MAINSTREETPROD for the following excellent example of exactly what the pros are talking about.
As they say: "Seeing is Believing"

Hey he want's positive!

The positive is that this is an unfair comparison because IF the camera was as close as the close shot then it would not have sounded so distant. Now they may have been just zooming in and out but in a real situation you probably would not choose to zoom that much because it flattens out you shot. But even if it's exaggerated it is the kind of difference you will get.


Another, surprising, positive I found the other day is that if you don't use the mechanics of the camera (ie go out direct with no tape in the camera and record to a separate recorder) the onboard mics are fairly decent. They are still way farther away than they should be for dialog BUT they are not picking up all the mechanical garbage of the camera so depending on what and how your shooting they might be OK. I had assumed they would be so noisy on their own that they would be unusable.

 

[Noiz2]

Ok, I vaguely recall the coffin scene... in both cases there is something compelling going on, which keeps the view/listener's interest, will she get out of the coffin, will he get out of the mine...

Absolutely. The one element you can not do with out is story. Film tends to tell a lot of it's story visually so people forget that you can also tell a story with sound.

 

[dre83]

@Steve, but that would just be philosophy or more of opinion, like my next statement: a good film is a film you can turn off the sound and still get what is going on. i've heard that statement somewhere but just forgot where
btw film in itself is/has a language within itself

There is one rule... sound decides everything... Even if you have a great shot with great camera, great lenses, great VFX... without sound...it's dead...

 

[Barry_Green]

Like everything, that depends -- lack of sound can be effective. All the space shots in "Serenity" were absolutely silent, because sound doesn't travel in a vacuum, and it worked really well...

without sound...it's dead...

I'd modify that to say "with bad sound... it's dead..." because yeah, bad sound kills more production value than any other element.

 

[Barry_Green]

Absolutely. The one element you can not do with out is story. Film tends to tell a lot of it's story visually so people forget that you can also tell a story with sound.

Of course you can -- it's called "comic books".

Actually, once upon a time ALL movies were done without sound. Those days are long gone and buried though.

 

[dre83]

Like everything, that depends -- lack of sound can be effective. All the space shots in "Serenity" were absolutely silent, because sound doesn't travel in a vacuum, and it worked really well...


I'd modify that to say "with bad sound... it's dead..." because yeah, bad sound kills more production value than any other element.

I agree with the chance to "bad sound".

But.. I wanted to add that if someone likes to make a movie... only as an excercice...go for it with a stupid "house, kitchen garden" camera.

Storytelling is important for sound though. It's very hard to make a sound design for a movie with bad actors (bad actors are actors who are always complaining and think they're the big stare. Good actors are actors who don't complain about standing in the rain because it's a cool shot)

So to practice storytelling wise, camera-angle-wise, camera-movement-wise, frame-wise... go for it (I know, it's already been said many times )

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

Of course you can -- it's called "comic books".

Actually, once upon a time ALL movies were done without sound. Those days are long gone and buried though.

I think it was briefly referenced, but even in the silent era, 'sound' was supplied by at least a Wurlizer... ok, maybe a piano... a while back someone posted a picture of an early 'silent' foley artist before foley was artistry...

I would conjecture, since I've never seen a pro setup, that many music videos are shot without too much regard to production sound when on location, or perhaps even shot with the audio track playing to maintain some semblance of the beat, if not lip sync.

 

[Noiz2]

I think it was briefly referenced, but even in the silent era, 'sound' was supplied by at least a Wurlizer... ok, maybe a piano... a while back someone posted a picture of an early 'silent' foley artist before foley was artistry...

I would conjecture, since I've never seen a pro setup, that many music videos are shot without too much regard to production sound when on location, or perhaps even shot with the audio track playing to maintain some semblance of the beat, if not lip sync.

Most music videos don't record production sound, or at least not with the intension of using it. A LOT of commercials don't use any production sound. One can not read too much into idiotic comments by some posters on the importance of sound. I do sound professionally so this isn't a picture person saying sound isn't important. But a film is a team sport and everything has to be at a certain level or it all falls apart. Sound is not more important than picture, except when it is. Anybody with some time can pull up a scene where it was all about the sound, or the image, or the music, or the VFX, etc. In a good film they all have there place and when they are not the star they are strong supporting players. Despite peoples impressions there is probably no commercial project made since sound became universal that has any place with silence. What you think of as silence is actually a carefully constructed sound of "silence". There are a few reasons for that. First in optical tracks for 35mm, you can't have silence. If you give it no signal the reader freaks out and you get noise, so there is always "air". There are some very famous (in the biz) "airs" that have names like "Yellow Sky" and such. Mostly they are recordings of empty sound stages. For home consumption you also can't go totally dead or some boxes will act bad and viewers are likely to think something broke and start playing with stuff. And space is actually not nec. totally silent. It is not a perfect vacuum so it is not impossible for sound to travel, it just doesn't do it well. If your close enough you could probably "hear" them in space. Of course you would have to have your helmet off so you wouldn't have long to hear it before you either had a fatal sunburn, keeled over from the bends or froze to death. I'm not sure how close I would be listening under those circumstances. And the bottom line is that in a movie you have made up a universe that doesn't actually resemble the one we live in very closely in the best of times (when was the last time you saw people a couple of hundred feet away having a conversation and you could make out every word?). Any decisions based on how it "really" is are probably bad ones, though fun to think about.

 

[Noiz2]

...
But.. I wanted to add that if someone likes to make a movie... only as an excercice...go for it with a stupid "house, kitchen garden" camera.

Storytelling is important for sound though. It's very hard to make a sound design for a movie with bad actors (bad actors are actors who are always complaining and think they're the big stare. Good actors are actors who don't complain about standing in the rain because it's a cool shot)...

What? are you talking about? That is some of the most????????
Good actors = meat puppets?
It's hard to do "sound design" for bad actors?????

Give me a break. and WTF is a "house, kitchen garden" camera???

I can't even imaging how a bad translation could make any sense of the above statements. I wouldn't even respond except that some poor kid with no experience might read them and take them seriously. I can agree that Storytelling is important for sound, the rest is just gibberish.

 

[Noiz2]

There is one rule... sound decides everything... Even if you have a great shot with great camera, great lenses, great VFX... without sound...it's dead...

Complete BS

It's not a pissing contest. Sound is ONE important player on the TEAM.

 

[Noiz2]

...
Actually, once upon a time ALL movies were done without sound....

Actually with the exception of nickelodeon machines (which were not really movies in a modern sense) movies were never played with out sound. Usually quite complex sound full of FX and music. Films traveled with scores to be played with the films and all theaters had trap musicians. The image is of the lone pianist but that was a rare situation and only in the smallest towns/theatres. In the "silent era" a movie show was only part of the ticket. There were various live acts also and the pit musicians played for both. Even in places like India where there were often not the musicians theaters had these folks who would "act" the films and do all the voices and sound FX. So silent refers to on film sync sound not the audience experience.