thank you rob, normally i graciously accept help and asking people for help is something i normally do only when i can't solve something myself....however when i come to a forum that is designed to help people learn things and all i get are insults i'm going to give attitude, sorry i'm not a lacky who just sits there and takes peoples ****....i figured it out in the end, which is all that really matters to me, but i seriously am going to question asking for help which it comes to editing every again if thats the manor i'm going be treated