How to avoid a cluttered mix?

[Steve House]

I am aware of the various standards for audio levels depending on the station. Locally each station has a different standard, so they just set the levels - they are used to doing it. So I mix for web / dvd levels which is all the way up.

Your post that we're commenting on said you mix so that peaks hit -0.3dBFS to -0.1dBFS. Was that perhaps a typo in the decimal point placement and you meant to say -3.0dBFS to -1.0dBFS? As Noiz suggested in his mention of overshoot meters, the actual peaks of the waveform can be 2 to 3 dB higher than the levels indicated on a typical peak-reading meter such as the software meters in your editing program. If you're mastering with peaks indicated as you say, you're REALLY trying to send the actual waveform tops all the way up into the +2 to +3dB range, something impossible to do in digital. I think I recall a post where you were suprised the over's indicator was coming on in FCP - no wonder it is. I've never seen any suggestion for web and DVD deliverables that they be allowed to go over -3dBFS and most sources suggest a brick-wall limiter set to -3 be placed at the last stage in the master output bus for DVD and 5.1 broadcast mixes, -10dBFS for TV broadcast stereo tracks. Even suggested maximums as low as -6dBFS for DVD are not uncommon. After all, what is gained by pushing things higher than that in the mix? If your track isn't loud enough for the listener, they can always turn up their playback volume control a little. Seems like turning the knob all the way up to "11" risks damaging the track without actually providing any benefits - all cost, no return - so why do it?

 

[Mitch.Kear]

This is great help guys, thank you. Noiz I find the realism I'm speaking of is the cluttered mix, not the actual sounds to the video. I can have all the apects covered but if the mix isn't right, neither is the feel. There isn't too much going on in the episode so if I rock the dialogue around -12dbfs and brickwall -3dbfs I should be good?

 

[Chadfish]

Steve, for video I normally master at -1db. That is totally fine for web and dvd. You can go all the way to -0.1 on DVD. It's a digital format. It's for music that I go to -0.3db because some players can clip. It's when we give our stuff to stations with analog gear/signal that we get the issues. Like I said, each station I send to has different gear and different standards, so I'm not going to make 4 different files of every ad I do. I send to SuddenLink (A national cable company) in Texas at -1db and I have not heard any complaints. Actually I just brought up their requirements PDF, and here is the entirety of what they say about audio:

Audio Requirements:
Audio Sample Rate: 48 KHz, 2 channels
A 2dBfs deviation on the actual audio level measurement is acceptable
Analog audio shall measure at a peak audio level of 0dBu
A 2dB deviation on the audio level measurement is acceptable

They say take it all the way up to 0! I don't know how that works. I though if you hit 0 you clip.

 

[Steve House]

This is great help guys, thank you. Noiz I find the realism I'm speaking of is the cluttered mix, not the actual sounds to the video. I can have all the apects covered but if the mix isn't right, neither is the feel. There isn't too much going on in the episode so if I rock the dialogue around -12dbfs and brickwall -3dbfs I should be good?

"Pilot episode" sounds like you're aiming for broadcast. -12dBFS is way too hot for dialog unless you're talking about rare excursions that high WHEN MEASURED BY AN NLE's PEAK READING METERS. Keep the dialog down around -22dBFS as measured with an averaging (ie, VU ballistics) meter and once dialog levels are locked, add the other elements to the mix to taste. Brickwall limiter at -3dBFS for a 5.1 DVD mix, -12dBFS for a broadcast stereo mix. If you really want to do it right, find a plugin that emulates the Dolby LM100 meter and set the levels so that ithe dialog stem by itself measures -22dBFS when averaged over the entire program.

The days of programs (and especially commercials) shouting at the audience are thankfully being legislated into oblivion.

 

[Steve House]

Steve, for video I normally master at -1db. That is totally fine for web and dvd. You can go all the way to -0.1 on DVD. It's a digital format. It's for music that I go to -0.3db because some players can clip. It's when we give our stuff to stations with analog gear/signal that we get the issues. Like I said, each station I send to has different gear and different standards, so I'm not going to make 4 different files of every ad I do. I send to SuddenLink (A national cable company) in Texas at -1db and I have not heard any complaints. Actually I just brought up their requirements PDF, and here is the entirety of what they say about audio:

Audio Requirements:
Audio Sample Rate: 48 KHz, 2 channels
A 2dBfs deviation on the actual audio level measurement is acceptable
Analog audio shall measure at a peak audio level of 0dBu
A 2dB deviation on the audio level measurement is acceptable

They say take it all the way up to 0! I don't know how that works. I though if you hit 0 you clip.

"dBu" is an ANALOG level measurement, not digital, thus the spec you quote is analog. SMPTE standard says +4dBu aligns to -20dBFS, thus for North American broadcast 0dBu analog = -24dBFS digital. (For European EBU standards, 0dBu = -18dBFS). As I read the spec you quote, assuming you have bars and tone on the leader into the spot or program, tone should be at -20dBFS and the actual program levels should average -24dBFS, +/- 2dB. (They don't mention it, but -24dBFS RMS average level will be bouncing around -16dBFS on a typical NLE software peak-reading meter.)

The problem with mixing as high as you say you are is that normal peak-reading meters can be off by as much as 3dB or so below the actual waveform peak, so if you exceed -3dBFS as indicated on the meter, there's a good chance you're actually driving it to clipping as the waveform peak has really already banged against 0 when the meter cliamed it was at -3.

 

[Chadfish]

Steve if it was an issue for them they would have said something to me. Also, they ask for no tone/slate. They just want the ad to be exactly 30sec as it should play. I don't know how they handle it. I thik they must have some sort of automator process that puts the audio where they want it. All the stuff sounds fine when it plays on TV. Ads are a different thing than actual shows as far as guidelines go.

 

[Steve House]

Steve if it was an issue for them they would have said something to me. Also, they ask for no tone/slate. They just want the ad to be exactly 30sec as it should play. I don't know how they handle it. I thik they must have some sort of automator process that puts the audio where they want it. All the stuff sounds fine when it plays on TV. Ads are a different thing than actual shows as far as guidelines go.

They used to be, but it's my understaning of the new legislation (I think it's called the CALM Act?) that the Feds are mandating tighter controls on levels in commercials, requiring that there not be a signifigant change in volume when going from program content to commercal breaks.

A while back I did a little experiment with my handy dandy SPL meter and found a couple of local stations here had more than a 12dB jump in SPL going from network program to local commercial - that's an outrageous assault on the listener!

 

[Chadfish]

I still think it's the stations that control if ads are 12db louder or not. You can measure the volume peak, and you can measure the average volume. The stations must kick those volumes up. But on the other hand, a show is mixed more like a movie with sections of dialog with no music or effects, recorded with shotguns and hypers, and an ad is mixed more like a song, since they usually have music and VO (recorded close miced with a large diaphragm condenser). Still I do hear certain ads that just jump out, and I think those were "maximized" to have less dynamic range in order to come out louder. Man I don't know how they do it.... Each station is different locally, and they are often dealing with some old analog equipment, and some new digital methods. I notice that when I switch from a SD channel (on Dish Network) to the HD version, the volume often goes down, but the fidelity increases.