how should i calculate sound investment in a single narrative project?

roei z

roei z

Veteran
took this from another thread for lack of answers...

it's kind of a dilemma:

my next project (as a director) will be shot during the next 3 months, 2-3 times a week.

i already have the DR100, and was about to purchase the following (+ finding a friend soundman for free): ntg-3, simple rode pole, cables, shockmount.. (NO mixer) = around 1000$

i was thinking that even for a single production, it's kind of a good investment (at least the NTG3), plus i have the stuff available instantly.

on the other hand, i don't plan to be a soundman and i won't really need all this stuff around, after this shoot.
so i checked and found that i can rent a professional boom set (mixer, pole, cable, 416, etc) for around 20$ a day.
so if i roughly add around 40 days of shooting for 20$ a day- 800$ (fro pro equipment and mixer)

i tend to go for the rent per day option..

but my only concern would be instant availability. arranging for picking up the stuff each time a shooting day is coming, returning, etc.

can someone please try to point out which option wins in this case?
(i know this answer can only come from lots of experience)

thanks :)
 
To be honest, I'd put that $1000 into finding someone who has gear and is looking for more experience. You have it available all the time, the person genuinely cares about the sound because its their career path and they get an honorarium for being apart of the project.

Spending $1000 on gear and then expecting someone to invest approx. 36 days of their time for free is never going to end well.

By the way, it's good to see you considering other options than just ADR for your production.

Kegan
 
:)
thanks, yea..
this is thanks to you guys.
the sound guy option is a path I didn't consider. Nice.
 
I'll Second 'hire someone'. Unless you personally plan to be a sound guy, buying anything beyond a very basic sound kit is a silly investment. Anyone you hire in the future will own or rent their own gear, and whatever you've bought will go unused.

With that said, I don't know what rates are like in Israel, but in North America, $1000 isn't going to get you a lot of days.
 
by hiring someone, in my situation, as Hunter suggests - it means finding an eager youngster with some equipment (another problem- what gear he has?),
and give him 1000$ for a first whole feature 'rookie' job.
not a 300$ a day soundman (wayyyy out of my budget)

i have a chance to start shooting in the next 2 weeks, so finding someone who fits into this won't be so easy..

so now it's a triple dilemma :)
 
In my opinion, its your best solution. You said it yourself - you're not an aspiring soundman and you have no reason for the gear after the project is done. It'll be worth it to put in the time to find someone...head to local universities, check film/sound courses in your area.

Dilemmas make finishing your feature that much more satisfying.

Kegan
 
Finding a dedicated sound person will also eliminate your "instant availability" requirement. You can arrange the schedule with the sound person in advance, so as the shoot draws closer, you can concentrate on all of the other details (which will require your full attention).
 
thanks!
guess you're right.
i'll give it a shot.
you really think that aspiring sound guys buy their own stuff so quickly ?
i think most people here mostly depend on rental houses.
 
roei z said:
took this from another thread for lack of answers...

it's kind of a dilemma:

my next project (as a director) will be shot during the next 3 months, 2-3 times a week.

i already have the DR100, and was about to purchase the following (+ finding a friend soundman for free): ntg-3, simple rode pole, cables, shockmount.. (NO mixer) = around 1000$

i was thinking that even for a single production, it's kind of a good investment (at least the NTG3), plus i have the stuff available instantly.
Click to expand...

As a non-sound guy, I have to ask, are you really never going to make another 'sound' picture, such that the use of the equipment, would be a one time affair?

For me I collected a set of equipment over a period of time, and so, while I'm not anticipating becoming a 'sound guy' any time soon, I can experiment with setups and learn what 'works' and what doesn't.

The other issue is for the price that you have in mind, were it my project, the only person I personally would trust to show up, is me.
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
As a non-sound guy, I have to ask, are you really never going to make another 'sound' picture, such that the use of the equipment, would be a one time affair?

For me I collected a set of equipment over a period of time, and so, while I'm not anticipating becoming a 'sound guy' any time soon, I can experiment with setups and learn what 'works' and what doesn't.

The other issue is for the price that you have in mind, were it my project, the only person I personally would trust to show up, is me.
Click to expand...

thanks for deepening on the subject.

as this is my first shot of producing a decent result for theater screenings, i was thinking that IF i'll proceed into other future projects, i'll probably try to fund them somehow.
but as you say, it doesn't mean i won't be in the same situation next year. so getting at least an NTG-3 for now is another good solid investments.

your last point is the most important, counting on myself. who knows which sound guy i'll find ? character, energies, talent and equipment is some kind of a risk.
here in Israel these kind of jobs are not in the habit of being very professional. for example, i wouldn't dream of finding a decent forum like this, with pro advices.
it's mostly a few schmucks that have an opinion, and even they can be hard to find on the net.

i know you guys will be harsh on this , but buying a basic boom set can give me a route of doing some basic field tests with my girlfriend as a boom operator and try to get decent results with me as a 'guardian'. (i'm a musician so if i were the soundman i know i'll get pretty decent results, even with no field experience)
this way i have time, patience and intimacy of the workflow as an advantage.
this can be the same with renting the stuff..

well, this is getting interesting :)
 
Picking up a basic set is fine, just don't go dropping tens of thousands of dollars on a full sound kit unless you're looking to do sound professionally.
 
hey guys,
i just realized something that might be quite decisive if i consider buying the NTG-3... :(

i was sure it will give me a hotter signal than the NTG-2 because it also had an internal battery + it is better.
(we're talking about getting a strong signal into the DR100 with NO mixer at the moment)

i just read that the NTG-3 is only phantom powered... is this right? i might have missed that.

so -
i don't get it-

i'll get a stronger signal with- NTG-3 & DR100 phantom - VS the NTG-2 with hot signal & DR100 and NO phantom ?
can someone please explain? it's just because the NTG-3 is newer and better?
and what about wasting the DR100 battery with the phantom ???
i calculated saving DR100 power with a hot mic.

thanks !
 
so it means i'll have a better signal with the DR100 phantom ?
does anyone remember it's battery life with/without active phantom? i remember reading that with phantom it turned ridiculously low..
 
Using my DR-100 with it's internal battery fully charged, plus the two AA batteries, I could get about 2 hours powering a Sennheiser ME-80. I built an external battery pack to extend that to 6 hourse between battery changes.

Also, the NTG-3 will give you about 6db more gain than the NTG-2. Changes are you will still be running the DR-100 with it's sensitivity switch set to high, and with the NTG-3 mic within 12-18" of the talent, you'll still be at the 5 o.k. position on the gain knob. This is an estimation but will give you an idea of how low the DR-100 preamps are set. When using my ME-80, I had to run the gain knob nearly WFO for get good dialog levels. Now, the preamps are fairly clean, and are adequate for most run and gun type work. However, given the choice, I would run a SD mixpre or some other mixer in front of the DR-100 and use the 1/8" line inputs.
 
roei z: I don't mean to harp on this subject, but what is your role going to be during this process? Are you the director? Producer? DP? Editor? The entire crew?

I find the whole mentality regarding gear on DVXuser pretty sad. Everyone talks about specs and equipment until they're blue in the face, but when it comes to making a decision regarding a narrative project and doing things right, no one posts anything. I understand low budget filmmaking - trust me. I've bought a bunch of gear and assumed that I could use it myself or get a friend to do it, because it can't be that hard. This is NOT a corporate video or event videography.

Narrative filmmaking is about collaboration - so many of you would rather do it yourself with average results than to try to reach out to someone for assistance. Granted, I don't know what the industry is like over in Israel, but I also didn't know very much about who was around in Canada when I started. There has got to be someone with gear that will help that you can rely on.

I've worked on an entire feature for approx. 30 LONG days for $1200 and brought my gear out to every shoot, when I was starting out. I was there everyday, on time and ready to work. People that share a passion for film and your project WILL be there.

Kegan
 
???? Sorry but that is a flip answer that has little to do with the question and is in fact not correct.

Phantom does not = 48v. The voltage of phantom power is not specified, it can be anything. It is commonly 48v but not always.

And the reason for the higher voltage is so you get less loss over a long run. The voltage the mic uses is much lower (it's lowered in the mic).

Depending on the mic you might get a hotter/ quieter signal with phantom power than an internal battery but not necessarily.

recordingwhiz said:
Phantom power = 48v

AA battery = 1.5 volts

Phantom, its mo-bettah
Click to expand...
 
Noiz2 said:
???? Sorry but that is a flip answer that has little to do with the question and is in fact not correct.

Phantom does not = 48v. The voltage of phantom power is not specified, it can be anything. It is commonly 48v but not always.

And the reason for the higher voltage is so you get less loss over a long run. The voltage the mic uses is much lower (it's lowered in the mic).

Depending on the mic you might get a hotter/ quieter signal with phantom power than an internal battery but not necessarily.
Click to expand...

yea, this kinda got me a little confused.
so between the price range of NTG-2 and NTG-3, is there another good dialog shotgun mic that has a battery support? save some phantom battery waste + high signal as the NTG-3?
or the NTG-3 is still the best choice overall ? (from my readings, NTG-3 is somewhat of a new marvel mic, i didn't find any good match up's except the 416)
 
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