How NOT to treat your actors.

[simonpwood]

Had I been on set and seen this kind of s--t being pulled, Kechiche would've been in a hospital, and me in a prison cell.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/09/01/the-stars-of-blue-is-the-warmest-color-on-the-riveting-lesbian-love-sory-and-graphic-sex-scenes.html

So you're saying that your gut reaction is that if you had been on set you would have reacted to his aggressive behaviour by being even more aggressive and beating him up to the point of putting him in hospital? As opposed to trying to calm the situation down a bit?

Seems you have more in common with the director than you would like to admit....

 

[Eric Boellner]

So you're saying that your gut reaction is that if you had been on set you would have reacted to his aggressive behaviour by being even more aggressive and beating him up to the point of putting him in hospital? As opposed to trying to calm the situation down a bit?

Seems you have more in common with the director than you would like to admit....

The world would be a better place if people were less afraid to throw a punch in defense of someone else.

 

[greymog]

The world would be a better place if people were less afraid to throw a punch in defense of someone else.

I would disagree if life were good on my end. And in the name of pacifism. But honestly, being fully aware on how this would reflect on my character, I'd be lying if I didn't say I felt the same way as Eric on this one. I dunno if I'd ever act on it, or if Eric would act on it, but the sentiment is there. It's no fun to be pushed around. At all. And sometimes, just sometimes, really, it would've been great if I could've stopped someone like that.

I really dunno how I feel about that, but I'd be lying if I said I was free of the feeling to just deck a bully in the face. Mods, pls delete if not appropriate. Just being honest. And sincerely dunno how I feel. This thread pulls a verrry sensitive string in my heart.

I guess I feel like Eric, but I wanna think like Rolf.

Eric, if it feels like I'm criticising how you feel, I'm not. Honest. I wish I had the balls is all.

 

[Eric Boellner]

...or if Eric would act on it...

To be clear, my original post was predicated on the idea that I basically came on set in the middle of that s--t happening. At that point, with him screaming "hit her! hit her again!" then I hope I'd have the balls to be John Wayne, but that's conjecture on my part. If I had been a member of the crew, working from the start of that day, then there's really no way I would have let it get to the point where I'd feel that violence was an appropriate response.

And sometimes, just sometimes, really, it would've been great if I could've stopped someone like that.

One of the worst things I've ever done in my life was to walk away from a situation where a man was verbally berating a woman in a 7/11 parking lot for supposedly hitting his car with her own car door. I don't know why I walked away, but it's stuck with me ever since as a time when I was just another do-nothing bystander, and there've been a couple times since when I've overcompensated for that. It's all a moral gray area for me as well, but when it comes down to it, if I see woman being physically or emotionally abused by a man, I hope to god I'll have the guts to err on the side of action.

-EMB

I feel like I should make it doubly clear that I've never been as John Wayne as my OP might suggest. I've only ever swung on someone once in my life, and it was relatively unjustified in hindsight. And I don't know if discussing the morality of violence is considered political, but if it is, I'd be happy to find other things to talk about that might be more OT.

 

[greymog]

I've never swung. Maybe it's my own insecurity that leads me to believe I'm fooling myself into thinking reason and logic is an inadequate man's punch.

Never swung.

And it's not really man vs woman in my book. It's bully versus lil guy.

And for what it's worth, until you were called on it, I took your original post very figuratively.

 

[Eric Boellner]

And it's not really man vs woman in my book. It's bully versus lil guy.

Same here, to an extent. I've stepped in before when some macho asshole was picking on another guy who clearly wasn't going to defend himself if it came to blows, but there've been other times when I've let two guys fight it out, even if one was at a disadvantage, because I personally think physical conflicts help make us stronger, and sometimes wiser. When it's man vs woman, though, unless the man is Zach Braff and the woman is Gina Carano, then my upbringing tends to kick in and the morality of it is black and white. It's just that sometimes, what I should actually do in response (talk, fight, etc.) is the gray area. At what point do you go from being the defender to being the aggressor? Probably when you threaten to put someone in the hospital. :thumbsup:

I don't think reason and logic, if they work to de-escalate the situation, are ever inadequate. I think acting is key, and like they say, prevention is the best cure. But I also have a strong disdain for the line of thought that says that violence is never an appropriate response. I firmly believe that it can be, though like I said, I've yet to come across a situation personally where I felt it was justifiable.

-EMB

Honestly, this has been one of the more interesting discussions I've had in a while on here, so thank you, greymog, for being open to it.

 

[simonpwood]

The world would be a better place if people were less afraid to throw a punch in defense of someone else.

Well, in the fantasy scenario you outlined in the first post; you the plucky filmmaker from Michigan stumbles on a set with 2 French Actors and a French Director; he's acting aggressive, one actress is hitting the other, and you race in and beat the Frenchman to the point of hospitalisation. You sit and wait to go to prison; but it was worth it because in this fantasy you're the all American hero - the John Wayne of the piece as you say, and you saved the damsels in distress. Win win.

I just wonder how it would play out in the real world?

A friend of mine once tried to stop a fight between a couple in a street. When he got a hold of the man, the women actually started screaming at him telling him to let her boyfriend go, and then scratched him in the face. Whether it was true or not; I have heard similar anecdotal stories from other people. I wonder what the psychology is behind that reaction? Maybe alcohol was involved?

Anyway; in your original fantasy story there would probably be 2 possible outcomes:

1) The 2 beautiful French 'lesbian' actors thank you for being the hero of the day and for saving them. The actor goes to hospital from the beastly moves you put on him, and the movie is probably never finished. The 2 ladies go to the police station with you to record their statements.

2) The 2 actresses politely ask you to stop trying to swing at the Director. The big guy in the grip department puts you in an armlock while the rest of the crew looks on incredulously. The 2 actors say "Uhhh...listen Eric, thanks, but we're actually working here. Please just go away." An awkward situation follows until you leave the set. They continue the movie, go to Cannes, win awards, become famous, and get to have pithy interviews in foreign lands where they get to highlight the directors odd style.

 

[greymog]

I oddly see Simon's point as well....

I heard somethin nice way back when, a good friend said 'it's a good movie if you dunno who's side you're on'.

This thread's a good movie. As far as talks go.

 

[Eric Boellner]

Well, in the fantasy scenario you outlined in the first post; you the plucky filmmaker from Michigan stumbles on a set with 2 French Actors and a French Director; he's acting aggressive, one actress is hitting the other, and you race in and beat the Frenchman to the point of hospitalisation. You sit and wait to go to prison; but it was worth it because in this fantasy you're the all American hero - the John Wayne of the piece as you say, and you saved the damsels in distress. Win win.

I just wonder how it would play out in the real world?

A friend of mine once tried to stop a fight between a couple in a street. When he got a hold of the man, the women actually started screaming at him telling him to let her boyfriend go, and then scratched him in the face. Whether it was true or not; I have heard similar anecdotal stories from other people. I wonder what the psychology is behind that reaction? Maybe alcohol was involved?

Anyway; in your original fantasy story there would probably be 2 possible outcomes:

1) The 2 beautiful French 'lesbian' actors thank you for being the hero of the day and for saving them. The actor goes to hospital from the beastly moves you put on him, and the movie is probably never finished. The 2 ladies go to the police station with you to record their statements.

2) The 2 actresses politely ask you to stop trying to swing at the Director. The big guy in the grip department puts you in an armlock while the rest of the crew looks on incredulously. The 2 actors say "Uhhh...listen Eric, thanks, but we're actually working here. Please just go away." An awkward situation follows until you leave the set. They continue the movie, go to Cannes, win awards, become famous, and get to have pithy interviews in foreign lands where they get to highlight the directors odd style.

Hahaha, I can see I've completely torpedoed myself by using an exaggeration. That's my fault, admittedly, as what I said is the equivalent of frustrated, hyperbolic expressions like "Ugh, I'm gonna kill you!"

I do enjoy your characterisation of me. As I mentioned before, I do love to be compared to John Wayne. I'd also take James Dean comparisons, or Dean Moriarty, but I wouldn't complain too much if compared to modern inferiors such as Ryan Gosling or Brad Pitt or whomever.

Joking aside, I actually was in the wrong for what I said in the initial post, or at least for how I said it. It's no fantasy of mine to save beautiful "lesbian" [???] actresses from tyrannical directors, but after reading the report, perhaps a less civilized part of me wouldn't have minded a couple minutes behind a locked door with Kechiche.

As for your friend's anecdote, I've known and heard similar stories myself. Read a story in the news a few years back where a guy stepped in to break up two women who were fighting outside a bar or something, and he got arrested for assault even though he didn't do anything, so of course, you can always think of awkward and embarrassing outcomes that could result from you taking action to stop something that is clearly wrong from happening. With all due respect to your friend, I think that's a s--tty excuse to act like a coward and do nothing (with the aforementioned admittance that I myself have acted in exactly such a manner before and regret it very much).

I get your point, and it's completely valid, that you think I'm trying to puff up my chest on an internet forum and act like I'm some kind of American hero. If you'll pay attention to what I've said, though, you'll see that I've acknowledged numerous times that I'm no John Wayne, and that in reality I don't know how I would react. Still, I don't blame you for getting that impression from me. I have a propensity toward self-aggrandizing, which I try to temper with public self-honesty, but I don't think it works as often or as well as I'd like.

In any case, I assume this is, as the actresses said, a cultural thing. Maybe in France, headlock-happy grips are just too manly to waste their time even saying anything when a director gets people hurt and tells them to do it again.

-EMB

 

[Eric Boellner]

Simon, just to be clear, I know that last post was full of snark and whatnot, but I want you to know I was grinning while I wrote it. I have nothing against you, and I really do mean everything I said, except for the humorous snark about manly French grips and whatnot. :thumbsup:

 

[simonpwood]

You're a good sport, Eric. :beer: I think we all can see the funny side of the whole story, as well as the genuinely nasty part.

It got me thinking though, about the ordeals that people will put up with for the sake of art. Used to be that people expected artists to suffer for their art (starving artists and all that). With filmmaking becoming ever more regulated, unionised, organised, and subject to more and more rules, it seems that filmmaking is becoming less artistic, and probably there is no place for tortured artists left in the industry.

Someone mentioned the mandatory maximum number of hours that people are allowed to work, according to the laws. I remember watching some behind the scenes footage of the Werner Herzog film 'Fitzcarraldo' - the one where he had his crew humping through the jungle for days, dragged a boat over a mountain, crashed the boat etc. The cameraman broke some bone or another in the crash; and shrugged it off and kept filming. Herzog got everyone to go above and beyond, and Klaus Kinski was a complete maniac on set. But they all struggled through. Believed in it. Collectively suffered for the art.

Imagine being the dork on the set of Fitzcarraldo that decided to bring up the question of hours to the director; mid-hump through the jungle? Bet no one ever did.

 

[greymog]

See that's the distinction... Herzog in that case kinda succeeded as a leader because he convinced people in his vision. I think the interview with the actresses, just that they said they'd never work with him again, shows that they aren't convinced of the vision.

Which brings us back to the discussion, were they bad actresses for the job, or did the director fail as a leader...it didn't seem like he got them to 'go above and beyond' (well put btw)

good morning all.

 

[simonpwood]

True.

But he got them to endure it for 5 months. They never bailed on the project; and they could have - I mean lots of people quit mid shoot but they did not. And here they are now doing the interview circuit for the movie, actually promoting it. Probably their story about his behaviour on set has done more to expand the movies notoriety than all the awards and the controversial subject matter.

Somehow I don't think that actors and actresses will be put off working with him in the future based on the account. Well, maybe a few fragile prima-donna types may pass, but I reckon the majority would be willing to sign up.

Look at David O. Russell (the director that George Clooney punched) - his behaviour on set borders on insane; but famous actors keep signing up and putting up with him because he gets the results.

Maybe, sometimes, there is a method in the madness?

 

[Rolf Silber]

Maybe, sometimes, there is a method in the madness?

Hmmmm.... it still only begs the question if the same results or even better ones could have been achieved otherwise. Which, of course, also is purely speculative as a question. As is the assertion that it could only have been achieved "Caligula's way". In the end it reflects only on us and on how we decide we want things to be done. My personal experience tends more to the notion the Caligulas use up and spent more energy on their vanity and self centredness than creativity is induced.

And yes, some of this people are usually really good at convincing themselves and others of their designation of being a tool of creative providence. And, strangely enough, they really achieve something sometimes. A good read about the complications of the really clinical cases is this:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychopat...TF8&qid=1379344283&sr=8-1&keywords=Jon+Ronson

On the other hand: People following their urge of commanding others frantically and anti-socially do less harm on a film set than - say - in politics or the military. The Russell/Clooney thing happens some times on a smaller scale also in my country and usually we try to book such actors who care for team members. Almost never did go wrong with that method..... ;-)

 

[Eric Boellner]

Imagine being the dork on the set of Fitzcarraldo that decided to bring up the question of hours to the director; mid-hump through the jungle? Bet no one ever did.

You bring up an interesting point here. I don't think I'd balk at a director asking me to undergo arduous circumstances or a truly grueling experience for the sake of art, as long as I knew that the director had respect for and understood what he was asking me to do. I remember one of the things that put me firmly in the Christian Bale fan club was the BTS features of Rescue Dawn. Herzog had Bale in these backwater swamps in either Thailand or Cambodia, I can't remember which, and after losing an insane amount of weight for his role, Bale was shooting scenes where he pulls live leeches off his body, eats a raw snake, etc.

And of course, I doubt Herzog lathered him with praise or really considered that all of a big deal; the guy's famous for being rather "f--k it" about the hardships he asks his cast and crew to undergo, but that's because he's always right there with them.

Kechiche, on the other hand, make his actors injure each other and then screams at them for giggling during one out of a hundred takes. And I don't think it's at all necessary for a director to kiss the actors' asses, I'm as much against that as anything, but I do think there needs to be a mutual respect in the director-actor relationship, and I don't think the incidents of this production would have occurred if there was such a relationship in place, and even if they had, they certainly wouldn't have been spoken of by the actors in such an unfavorable light.

Not saying that respect makes it okay to hurt people, but it's the difference between an actor making the choice to give 100% and risk injury for the sake of the film, and the director making that choice and demanding the actors go along with it. Which, by the way, regarding them being able to quit or not, Rolf seems more knowledgeable about the state of European film production, but from what the actresses said in the interview, it seems like in France it's much more auteurist on-set, and doing something like walking out on a director could have gotten them essentially blacklisted. I don't know if that's actually the case - I've never worked in France - but that's just the idea I got from what I read.

In any case, I'm glad we're having this discussion. And since it's kind of related: The 3 Manliest Things Ever Done by Werner Herzog.