how much light?

H

humanimal

Member
Hey guys,

I am shooting a dance film in a couple of months and am currently building the budget. I have found it difficult building a budget without specifically knowing what type and how much light I will need for the whole project. I am shooting with the Dvx 100b and most of the film will be high contrast black and white with some seens in colour. I have lots of medium and close up shots. I have a rooftop scene and street scene which will be shot during the day with an overcast sky but there may be some long and overhead shots but I am thinking of maybe shooting roof top scene at night. My question is can I get away with purchasing an arri kit and just rent bigger lights if I need them for a specific shooting day for this project and if so what is your recommended kit? Would and Arri soft bank 4 get me covered for everything I need? Can't afford bigger lights and I don't think it'd the money for the the amount I will use it. I don't want to go any further than 3-4g's. If you guys have any other advice it openly welcome. Don't worry I am not the dp I'm just drawing up the budget but I have not yet hired a dp who knows the project to specify it's needs.

Thanks
 
It's always nice to own your own lights, especially for future gigs, and if you decide you need to shoot some additional footage for your project.
A dance scene on a roof will more than likely require a lot more light than what a 4 light Arri kit can offer you.
Your going to need quite a bit of separation light to keep your dancers from getting lost in your background.
You may even need to throw light on buildings in the background.
Your budget may be better suited to rent larger lights -1200's -2500's..or larger. You can also buy 30 inch chinese lanterns and put 1000 watt bulbs in them and use them as practicals on your set. Hang them from old television antennas, clothes lines, water pipes, ect. It would look nice to see them on your set, and in the frame. Add other lights to edge your talent, and provide "Specials" to light things on your set.
Close up's..use one of your lanterns on a c-stand, closer to talent.
Just trying to help, each set is different and has it's own unique requirements, and light placement issues. Other options---------
Big lights from an adjoinging building, use a helium filled balloon light over your set, tied off between two buildings. Shoot it earlier in the day....Shoot day for night..Good luck.
 
Hey Man,

Thanx a lot for the post it's a big help. I suppose most Gaffers aren't like sound technicians and have there own equipment eh? Well I have approx. 3000-4000 in my budget for lights. If you if had your brain briefly transplanted into my head what would you say would be the best bang for the buck to cover all the corners of the light requirments for my project?

Thanks again
 
Trust me on this.....You would not want my brain in your head....lol

Given the scope of your project..I am trying to weigh several issues.
Most of what you describe is outdoors. You have daylight needs and tungsten light needs(Your night time rooftop)
If I could budget it.. ( For your outdoor street shoot)I'd rent a 6k or 2 - 2500 watt HMI's- Then I would rent a 12x12 frame and fire the the lights through a silk -attached to the frame. I would then edge my actors with two more lights, like 2 more 2500's or at least two 1200 hmi's. I would also keep a 6x6 frame with white griff * fabric handy for fill light.(*=ask your rental house- it's used for bouncing light)
I know you want high contrast black and white, but I suggest you tweak your contrast in post. Better to have enough light, and take it away or adjust it, than not having enough, and trying to make up for it.
As far as my comments above, you will probably need to try this with slightly smaller lights.( I was trying to answer your "Brain swapping" question)
Your night scene may prove to be expensive, but I would need to see the rooftop, know it's dimensions, what it looks like at night to give you a fair quess at what you need.
As long as you have gone to the trouble of renting the hmi's, you can still use them, and add CTO (Color temp Orange) to match any other practical tungsten light that may be in the shot, or from perhaps the nighttime glow of the city below.(Again, lots of options, and I can't see your set, or how tall your building is, and what buildings are nearby)
One big light from a nearby building would be nice- perhaps from the side. Other 2500's from the back and other side to edge your actors hair and legs from the dark background...I would also use a few lights on buildings in the background. These lights can be gelled a color, or even go without any color correction. I would hide smaller 300's,650's and even 150's on the roof to define rooftop set pieces, architecture,and provide eye lights. I still like the chinese light idea from my first post.
So to wrap it up on a budget, ask the rental house to BID on this.
Let's call this
Package# 1-Daylight street dance set-up
1- 6k hmi
3 -2500HMI
1- 12x12 frame with silk
1-6x6 frame with griff
appropriate stands needed
1- crank O vater stand (for the 6k)
4- Mombo-Combo stands- 2 for lights-2 for 12x12(some people prefer roller stands)
3 - double riser combo stand - 1 for extra light and 2 for 6x6 frame
and of course the required grip gear, genny to run lights, sand bags, clamps ect..
Package 2- Same outdoor street dance setup.
4 -1200 watt hmi's (they all run on household 15 amp service(whew)
6x6 frame with silk
a couple of 4x4 shiney boards ( with good grip talent)
2-mombo combo stands
2 - double riser combo stands.
and appropriate grip stuff.
***************************
I need to sign off tonight.. sorry. I will look in tomorrow to share advice about your nighttime shoot, unless some other very qualified folks here wanna chime in. I still stand by some of my first recommendations on the rooftop lighting suggestions. See ya tomorrow.
 
Dude,

thanks so much for all of that. It gives somebody who knows nadda about lighting a pretty clear idea of what I need. Again I really appreciate I guess for 3000-4000 renting will be the route. By the way the in rooftop scene the roof will be covered with light grey marley which is a type of dance floor. Do you think I would need less light because of this. I imagine it would act as one be reflector when too much light hits it. Anyways man thanks again this post has really helped me picture how lights work on a set. Lastly when you mention package 1 and package 2 do you mean those as 2 different options to achieve the same thing or do i need those packages in combintation with eachother.
 
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After a good night sleep(Finally) And a cancelled call time this morning(F#@K)
I can answer a few of your questions.
First of all, the different packages I mentioned... This is basically, what I would WANT to have, and What I believe I could settle for for.
Also, after re-reading my last post, I believe that the 6k maybe a slight overkill for the dvx100b. Not so for a film shoot though. But I do believe you could use a 2500HMI and a 1200hmi, behind a 12x12 silk to accomplish the same effect. But this ALL DEPENDS ON HOW LARGE AN AREA THEY ARE DANCING IN.
The dance floor on the roof also presents some interesting dilemmas[SIZE=+0] for light placement.(Why did the type face change mid-sentence?) The angle of the light for one. Avoiding , or creating shadows on the dance floor. Cross shadows on the dance floor, in my opinion would not look great. Using the chinese lanterns on the roof might provide the more romantic feel. And you can add 2- 2500 watt hmis from another roof to edge their hair and legs.You might be able to get away with two 1200's hmi as well for this, so that your chinese lanterns are not overpowered. You can tighten the pattern and the throw of the edge lights with lenses that come with 1200 pars Hmi's if the distance is awkward[/SIZE]
I would still plan on using perhaps an Arri type kit to use on the roof to highlight various things on the roof. And if you can see taller buildings in the background, or you plan on shooting a high angle of your couple near the edge, I would also consider a large source of light to light up a building in the background for separation. If this is not possible, a grip or gaffer can use a 150 or 300watt light on the end of a c-stand, hanging out over the edge of the building to edge your actors. This can also be accomplished from below, by putting a light way out on a c-stand arm from the floor below the roof, shooting up, from the street with a very bright light, or from a different building nearby. If your worried about shadows on the dance floor, place your edge lights lower, and use nets or flags to keep the light from spilling on the floor. But provide enough illumination to see their feet for your wide shots.
I would still plan on using a smaller chinese lantern for fill light on your closeups or a 150 arri type light with "Opal" diffusion as an eye light.
Good luck...
Boys, I'm sure this young man could use some other advice...
 
You could also Scrap most of the lighting set up for the roof, and just use strobes, add back light...go for it. Just a thought....Have another actor with a camera and flash photograph your dancers. Supplement his on camera flash with some larger units and flash-freeze-flash freeze the dance number..could be way cool..
Sorry, I need more caffeine
..or less...
 
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Hey man thanx again you are painting a good clear picture for what I will need. a number of shots will also frame the dancers topographically. Ok i will just explain the scene. The scene starts with one dancer sitting cross legged in the middle of the rooftop with a small box infront of her. She begans a phrase a choreography that is done entirely with her arms. Most of the shots we will do of her are close and maybe one or two overhead more zoomed out angles. In the background is the door to the rooftop(her back is to the door). I will problaby direct some shots where the doorway is over her right shoulder and the camera is in close and framing her and the door . Now there is talent standing in the doorway so I had plans to rack focus between the two subjects. The subject in the doorway is going to slowly move towards the one sitting in the center of the roof. Once the two subjects come together the major choreography of the scene begins. Back to the little black box that I mentioned in the beginning infront of the first subject. The box is rigged with a felt bottom and the inside of the box is loaded with black paint. The theme of the choreography is one subject trying to get the box from another. The choreography is low to the ground and sliding and rolling and some standing up. But by the end of the set of choreography the subjects have painted a huge picture across the entire rooftop using the pinted loaded box. Hence the reason the for dance floor. In the end I want a overhead shot of the picture. There it is in a very segmented un-organized, undetailed description. I like your idea about the flash I will have to play with and see if it suits the scene if not it is a good idea for something else down the road. I agree that shadows won't look good need to be to a minimum on the floor. I would like to light the buildings in the background if the location has any and the budget allows it. I was also thinking about making everything else around the rooftop dissapear so that it has this island sourrounded by darkness type of feel. I woud like to hit the rooftop doorway with some light but I think it would be cool to light it so the subject in the doorway in the beginning of the scene is only silhouetted(I figured if the door swings outward I could position a light on the side the door swings so that the door still shadows the subject but the light hits the walls surrounding the door and then behind the subject pop a light on the stairs inside to frame him with light. Sorry if this doesn't make sense me tech language sucks. Anyways thats it for ow man. Hey don't feel obliged to write me back man, you have offered more help than I could of asked for

Take it easy
 
Sounds like you have have things well in hand.
I like the standing in the doorway idea. And I would put a light in the stairwell behind him. Perhaps when he does finally leave the doorway, he could walk through a few shafts of light , that hit his body, then a shaft of light on his face as he gets closer to the female dancer.
Sounds edgy..I like what you have described...Good luck

Oh and by the way...When you shoot the shots of her arms against the darkness, you might want to put white foamcore on the ground underneath her, and use a couple of 150's or a 300 watt light with a scrim or two. Fire the light into the foam core to give her arm an edge light, very dim, but just enough to read. Or scrap that, and just edge her from a somewhat low angle from a light behind her...
Ok..enough advice.. I would love to see some scene grabs once you have shot this...
Good luck again. Jon
 
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Hey Jon,

Thanx again and I'll be sure to send you some grabs when I'm done. The project is not set until next year but I am just finishing preproduction on a short now and when It's finished i'll be sure to send you a sample

take care
 
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