How Much Difference Do 24p Camera's Make?

A

AbcAbcwebd

Member
Like many people I love the look of film, especially for certain projects, but I also love the inexpensive nature, and conveinece of digital. The last few years I've heard of more and more movies that were shot on video but have that cinematic look. Obviously their talented cinemantographers, but beyond that I've been trying to learn more about the technology.
I understand many of them are shot using 24p cameras. Is filming with such a camera very different than filming with a standard HD camera and then using Magic Bullet or the likes to convert to 24p? Do these camera do other film-like things besides the number/arrangement of the frames?
 
The Panasonics (HMC150, HVX200A, etc) for example shoot 24P, but also include adjustable gamma curves/image adjustments meant to replicate the look of film and they do a pretty great job of creating a very organic image. Even the DVX100B SD camera on a film like Lonesome Jim looked very film-like to my eyes. I think if you want 24P it's best to start with it in the first place. Here are some cameras in many price ranges that have 24P
Canon DLSRs - under $1000
Nikon D7000 - a bit above $1000
Canon HFS 20/200/21 - under $1000
The new Sony handycams CX700 CX560- a bit above $1000
Panasonic HMC 40 around $1600 - has all the gamma curves/image adjustments
Panasonic HVX200a around $3200 has 4:2:2, gamma curves/image adjustments
Canon XF100 $2999 - has 4:2:2 gamma curves/image adjustments
 
AbcAbcwebd said:
Like many people I love the look of film, especially for certain projects, but I also love the inexpensive nature, and conveinece of digital. The last few years I've heard of more and more movies that were shot on video but have that cinematic look. Obviously their talented cinemantographers, but beyond that I've been trying to learn more about the technology.
I understand many of them are shot using 24p cameras. Is filming with such a camera very different than filming with a standard HD camera and then using Magic Bullet or the likes to convert to 24p? Do these camera do other film-like things besides the number/arrangement of the frames?
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Any conversion from a different frame rate to 24p (or any other frame rate, really) costs you quality. It's mathematically impossible that it won't.

It also costs you in other ways, because you can't see what your footage will look like as 24p while you're shooting. This is especially important when it comes to camera movement.

If cinema is what you're after, you'll want 24p. If you want 24p, you should shoot with a 24p camera.
 
AbcAbcwebd said:
Thanks! Some good information. I'll look into getting one.
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I would also offer the Panasonuc Lumix GH-2 as an option for 24p capture. I have the GH-1, and the GH-2 improves several elements.

There is a little difference on Panasonic's attitude about the GH series and Canon's... At NAB yesterday I checked... Canon had their DSLR's out along with their more 'broadcaster' oriented cameras... Panasonic had just their 'broadcaster' cameras, as they view the GH series to be on the 'consumer' side...

Be that as it may, I chose the GH-1 over the Canon offerings, due to 2 basic reasons, price, and the ability to 'easily' use my Nikon lenses. Had I collection of Canon lenses I'd probably have gone with Canon...

But even buying the 14-140 lens and GH-1 camera body, that was less by $500 than the Canon 7D body only... at the time...

You can check out the various other sections on people using the various cameras...

As for 24 fps vs... well, I'm beginning to chalk this up to 'yet-another-fetish'. There's the DoF fetish, now there's the '24 fps' fetish...

Speaking of NAB... I visited the Christie booth... a big name in theater digital projection systems... and they had the crappiest projector I've ever seen on display... indicated by the booth person to be a 'prototype'... jittery 24 fps, washed out color... you name it... I don't know what they where demo'ing...

But anyway, the reaosn I use 24 fps for the most part is 1) aobut 20% lower data rate at the get go from 30 fps... 2) for anything higher than 30 fps, losing a stop or more of light to get the exposure, at least when using the customary 180 degree (or 1/2 the frame rate) shutter selection.

At the NAB show the AF100 was present, but I didn't really check it out, as it is sort of out of my price range at the moment.

One of the problems with the more traditional video camera that I saw with the Panasonic HMC150 that really bothered me was the distortion that the fixed zoom lens introduced. I put off buying a HD upgrade, until the GH-1 and the Canon 7D came out, mainly because I did not want to be stuck with whatever the engineering mavins at Panasonic came up with for a fixed lens.
 
Do these camera do other film-like things besides the number/arrangement of the frames?
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Well, higher-priced cameras do offer more "film-like" shooting parameters that let you better control of the picture's look. There is a lot more to it than just 24p and narrow DOF (more of a by-product than anything) that characterizes the romanticized "film-look", including the color and tonality of the image, lighting and most importantly the cinematography behind the camera. Once you go down to a frame rate as slow as 24p, you have to be very deliberate with your camera movements, because it's very easy to introduce jitter and choppy motion into the shot if you aren't careful.
 
Once you go down to a frame rate as slow as 24p, you have to be very deliberate with your camera movements, because it's very easy to introduce jitter and choppy motion into the shot if you aren't careful.
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I've found this to be particularly true while shooting outdoors at night even with the cam sitting still on a tripod. The harder it is for the cam to gather light, the more choppy the motion is. You can still have that problem at 60i, but it's usually not much of a concern.

But as to buying a 24p cam, simply buy what you can afford. If it means going into debt with money you don't really have, then stay with your 60i cam and use Maker or Magic Bullet to get your 24p. They won't do quite as well as a 24p cam, but they aren't bad, and you'll sleep better not having to worry about paying off your credit card. I used Maker before I got my 24p HDV cam, and it was okay. I mean, not as good as Magic Bullet or a 24P cam, but believe me, if you're broke, it's good enough.
 
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