how do you tell someone their writing sucks

Patryk_Rebisz

Patryk_Rebisz

Veteran
A friend of mine - after 10 years of work - has self published a novel. Having read the first few chapters it's obvious the book sucks. EVERY sentence is overwritten with too many words obscuring the guts of the story - and what's worse those words don't have much flaire. I'm NOT a writer but even I can tell it's not good. Do i say something or simply pretend i never had a chance to read his book?
 
Did he ask you your opinion? Whenever someone asks me to read something of theirs I ask them if they want any feedback and if so in which areas, such as story, structure, dialog (where that applies) otherwise I don't offer my opinion. If he's your friend and he asks you, tell him the truth as you see it.
 
don't volunteer any information, it is always taken the wrong way.

as hscully says better to be asked, and then don't hold back and just let him have it! :thumbsup:

what I've learned is when most people ask for feedback they don't really want it anyway. :huh:
 
starcentral said:
...what I've learned is when most people ask for feedback they don't really want it anyway. :huh:
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THAT is spot on... especially when it comes to writers. If you think it will come up where the writer is going to ask you for feedback, and you value their friendship, I would find some pedantic technical issues to offer advice about and avoid your thoughts about the merit of the whole piece. If the piece is as bad as you say, and they are putting the work out for public consumption, they are going to a lot of negative feedback without you throwing in your two cents. If you value the friendship it might be advisable to find a few things in the piece that you do like; to start the conversation with, if asked. All in all, when it comes to a friend in this situation, you are kind of between a rock and a hard place. Try being encouraging, for future progress, without being specific with general criticism of the current work. This advice is from personal experience actually. One of my best friends is a writer who is very prolific. He has done some stuff that I think is great, but he has done a lot of stale, cliched sh*t. I am very PC with my criticism. I think over the years he understands when I don't care for a piece but he recognizes that I value him as a friend more that I value being a critic of his writing. Many times, after he gets his nose bloodied about his work by others, he comes to me and ask me about the specific issues that I have with the piece. That is a good place, and productive. His work is getting better and better.
 
I know someone who does this thing called a "compliment sandwich," where he says a compliment when critiquing someone's work, and then a piece of criticism, then a compliment again with more criticism, and so on. If you can't find anything good about the novel, maybe state a vague piece of general compliment before telling him everything you find wrong with it.
 
A professor used to tell me "all writing problems are thinking problems." If it's not thought well, it won't read well. When you're reading something, you're looking at the product of a man's thoughts. A lot of us confuse what we like to consume (novels, movies) with what we want to produce, and want to be seen as a producer of those things we (and our friends) like to consume.

If somebody is your friend, your first duty is to be their friend. If you're a reviewer for the Guardian, that's a different story. Maybe when you read his bad novel, you can see things in there about him that you admire, or things you've been through together, or reflections of characteristics of him you like? Why not just keep it on that level.
 
First off, preface everything with "This is just my opinion...."

Then try to put your thoughts in a constructive tone. Better to say "I think it would have been better if you'd done this...", rather than "What you did here wasn't good..." And again, frame it as your opinion -- "I think", "I feel" -- rather than as an absolute like "It should", "It didn't".

Only hit the major things. Don't bury your friend under an avalanche that covers every single thing you didn't like. You don't want to discourage him, but rather encourage him.

Honesty is important. If his book has been published, then there's nothing that can be done about that now. But you can help him make his second book better.

Let's hope he's enough of a friend to accept and appreciate your input, and not overreact to it.
 
Let a critic or a writer tell them they suck. Keep your friendship. Anyone who writes thinks they write ok or they wouldn't write. As Starcentral said, they want to be complemented by their friends, not hear criticism. Besides, the criticism won't be heard. It will be misunderstood.
 
You could start by saying "I read "Magnolia" in 1993 and I thought it sucked so what do I know". True story. I try to remember that and assume I just might not get it and it may be really good.
 
Paul F said:
Let a critic or a writer tell them they suck.
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That's not a bad idea. It actually falls under the heading of encouraging friendship. Encourage him to seek out the opinion of an editor. People accept authority from people who are in a position to provide them with something, not from their equals. It can be a healthy good-cop bad-cop thing. Bracing professional criticism.

And be wary lest he turn around and say, "well as a matter of fact, I've been struggling with how to tell you that Spirit / Will / Loss thing sucks. Just total garbage." I'm not picking on you, I think you have raised an interesting point (albeit inadvertently); that we all have such blind spots about the value of our own work. Lambert has a good point.

Usually when people offer you advice in a format like this, they are advising you to lie, and very often that's the advice people want to get. But I see some good responses here.
 
The thing is, the book is already published. If he can get an editor to read it, that would be good. Especially if he doesn't tell the editor that HE wrote it. He's more likely to get an honest evaluation that way.

Asking a writer to review it can be problematic. Even with a good book, every writer would have written it differently. I find it hard to objectively review someone else's screenplay because I'm always thinking about what I would do to make it 'better'. Writers are also competitors, and that can enter into the equation as well.

His best bet is probably getting some avid readers to read his book -- if he can get an honest and objective review from them.

In an ideal relationship, a good friend should be able to be honest and the writer should weigh the friend's advice. But few relationships are ideal.

If it were me, I would probably tell the friend, "I don't feel comfortable critiquing your book. I'm not an expert, and I don't want to risk jeopardizing our friendship. But I will help you find some people who can give your book a more qualified review. As your friend, I'm just really proud of you for sticking with it and getting it written and published!"
 
The book is already self-published, ie, vanity-published, not published. It's not too late to salvage his literary reputation. I have the honor to disagree with you David, on people's critiques. Readers will just tell you a bad book sucks. Editors can tell you how and why it sucks, and perhaps help the guy tighten up his prose. Editors can look at a cow and see a sirloin.

I will indulge myself a joke; maybe the book has revealed to you that this guy is an idiot that you shouldn't be hanging out with.
 
David G. Smith said:
THAT is spot on... especially when it comes to writers.
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Lol, I was just about to say the same damn thing about Directors, Lighting dudes and dudettes, Wardrobe and Make-up, Camera Operators and DoPs. Oh, yeah, and Actors. And that's just in filmmaking. Don't get me started on software design, landscaping, dress making, brick laying and rubber manufacturing. Just try telling a Landscape designer their choice of shade plants sucks. Or, you could soften it to something like 'You know, Bobby, I think this is a splendid job, though your shade plants seem a little, I don't know, one-dimensional'. Whatever happens next is a reflection on the validity of the friendship.


Want an exciting, near-death experience? Try telling a Chef their tomato soup sucks, or 'is left wanting for that zesty aftertaste'.


As mentioned, wait until (if) they ask. When they do, maybe avoid the word 'sucks'. Regardless of your take on it, there may be one or even two that like/love the story as written. If you get pressed for an opinion, maybe try something along the lines 'enjoyed it, but have to admit I struggled through. I'm in film as you know and kinda used to reading scripts, where flowery writing is mega-restrained if not altogether missing. I'll give it another whirl.'

Or just bulls*%t 'em and say 'I loved it so much I loaned it to a friend.'


Maybe try to skim through so you at least have the gist. Just in case.

a
 
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Paul F said:
Let a critic or a writer tell them they suck. Keep your friendship. Anyone who writes thinks they write ok or they wouldn't write. As Starcentral said, they want to be complemented by their friends, not hear criticism. Besides, the criticism won't be heard. It will be misunderstood.
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Completely agree. Hurt feelings are hard to repair, keep your friendship.
 
Hmmmm ..... Apart from that it's absolutely right to make a calculation about what is more important to you - being an honest critic or keeping a friend (and yes, that's very important at times) - there are a few things here I find irritating.

The "honesty" of critizism is a somewhat mute point. Critizising writing is not a moral process. It's communication about work. So the first thing to ask: Am I the right person to critizise the writing. And this is even more important in evaluating prose than a film-script where you can more clearly talk about the mechanics or statics of a piece. To try it with a metaphor - if you can't cook, you shouldn't critizise a cook-book or make clear that you, well, can only say something about style but not content.

Now asking or been asked for an "objective" critizism is even more of a chimera. There is no objective critizism. Never. Writers of prose often have to run from editor to editor, from publishing house to publishing house until they get taken on. Or end in the garbage bin for good. Ask the original author of Forrest Gump, ask the Harry Potter-Lady. Next to any author of prose has a pack of rejection letters sitting in the drawer.

So if the professionals in the business can not clearly make up their minds about certain books often - how should we, being professional in a somewhat connected but different field? The only thing we can be is informed dilettands. And as such the best we can do is to ask "does it talk to me" and "do I really have a criteria"? If not, we need to refuse to critizise altogether.

And then, if we attempt to do it anyhow or because we think we have to or can do then - help me out here - what is "the writing sucks"? Tell a chef the tomato soup lacks that zesty aftertaste? Thats not critizising thats just reporting your own lack of criteria, because lacking zestiness will not help. It's diffuse. Too salty, too sweet, too liquid ... Here we would start giving concrete answers, start developing real criteria other than "I didn't like it". Which is a valid and important criteria btw - but that of a consumer, not a professional.

Apart from that: The most important tool in the constructive critizisers toolbox is the question mark. Not the exclamation point. Question marks can be the border collies of writing - they watch the process and nudging it into the - hopefully - right direction. And question marks do not hurt as much while exclamation points tend to be pompous. And often reveal more about the critizisers need to show his superiority.

But, if it's prose and a friend's and it's already published - be careful. If your friend had a child, you better leave the critizing bit to the teachers. Same with prose. If it's work in progress it's different probably. But remember the question mark...
 
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My friend SELF-PUBLISHES books, one every year. You can download it on Amazon for Kindle. I don't think he's a very good writer, but do I tell him? No. Why? Because HE NEVER ASKS ME for any feedback even though I'm a writer too and can give him pretty good feedback. If it's published - it's a done deal. There's no point hurting his feelings, just like a finished movie that's been mixed and scored and screened is a done deal. But if a friend ASKS you for feedback and criticism at some point in the development process, you're doing good and being helpful by trying to give constructive criticism. You don't say "it sucks", but you try to shape the progress of the writing or edting as best you can. I would expect the same for my friends. I often need feedback at various stages of pre and post production and I seek Honesty. But if it's all done - SHUT UP about it.
 
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