How do you judge a low-budget short film (or feature)?

[craigbowman]

Having followed Faith's journey here since she first started posting, I've yet to encounter anything she said she did in the last five years that wasn't true. So if she says she sold 11,000 DVDs I will completely accept her word for it over any kind of skepticism no matter how well presented the arguments. If it wasn't for relying on my own best judgement over the skeptics, I would never have purchased a Red camera either. After all the decades of feedback on how my judgement has worked or not, I'll be sticking with it.

 

[Gary Huff]

If it wasn't for relying on my own best judgement over the skeptics, I would never have purchased a Red camera either. After all the decades of feedback on how my judgement has worked or not, I'll be sticking with it.

Considering that Red is one of the standards of digital film production, I'm not sure which "skeptics" you are talking about.

 

[craigbowman]

Considering that Red is one of the standards of digital film production, I'm not sure which "skeptics" you are talking about.

It might be a standard now, but when I first ordered mine which was over a year before it actually shipped, the skeptical posts, which if you go into the archives of sites like RedUser.net and cinematography.com are there for the record.

 

[Kholi]

Considering that Red is one of the standards of digital film production, I'm not sure which "skeptics" you are talking about.

xD The army of skeptics and detractors that used to live here on User and elsewhere.

 

[LbSand]

Plus, I'm curious as to what percentage of DVXUser members currently own the DVD?

What does that have to do with her sales? DVXUser wasn't her target audience.

She found a demographic that she understood, and was apart of, and generated a lot of pub.

For the record, I bought one to see what the big deal was and then picked up 5 as gifts for several older family friends who raced when they were young. I know at least a dozen more were purchased (and at least 1 dvd player for one gentleman) from their group of friends. I thought it was okay and impressive for the reasons Barry mentioned.

The most important thing - Genre with cash and thirsty for content + product that was "good enough" + a serious push to the target audience = Profit.

I don't see the number of 11,000 sales even remotely surprisng. A few key numbers -

28,800 - the approximate number of times that someone has searched for the exact phrase - deuce of spades - in the last 12 months on google. I would assume the number would have been higher in previous years.

43,200 - the approximate number of times that someone has searched for the exact phrase - hot rod movie - in the last 12 months on google.

1,263,600 - the approximate number of times that someone has searched for the phrases hotrod or hot rod - in the last 12 months on google.

2,600,000 - the number of websites with the phrase "hot rod" in the Title of the page.


Does the thought of 11,000 sales really seem that out there, even before factoring in all of the general pub she got?

Not trying to be snarky, but I've only recently come to this board to get into filmmaking and my mind is blown at how narrowly many people understand very basic marketing / distribution concepts. Film isn't a special snowflake in that arena.

 

[Kholi]

What does that have to do with her sales? DVXUser wasn't her target audience.

Nothing at all, correct. DVXuser definitely wasn't her target audience. Anyone looking to make a living off of selling motion pictures to filmmakers only may need to rethink their strategies. lol

She found a demographic that she understood, and was apart of, and generated a lot of pub.

Right, and I agree with this. I've said this a few times, but I'm pretty sure I could quickly manufacture a feature length film about an underdog Horse and its owner on some fantastic journey and make quite a lot of money self distroing it.

Notice how many people are fans of Horses on facebook.

I get it.

For the record, I bought one to see what the big deal was and then picked up 5 as gifts for several older family friends who raced when they were young. I know at least a dozen more were purchased (and at least 1 dvd player for one gentleman) from their group of friends. I thought it was okay and impressive for the reasons Barry mentioned.

That's a pretty good deal, six out of one person. Not the first time I've read that (outside of Craig), so perhaps that's a really huge help to the sales.

The most important thing - Genre with cash and thirsty for content + product that was "good enough" + a serious push to the target audience = Profit.

Agreed, but more not exactly Genre versus Niche appeal.

I don't see the number of 11,000 sales even remotely surprisng. A few key numbers -

28,800 - the approximate number of times that someone has searched for the exact phrase - deuce of spades - in the last 12 months on google. I would assume the number would have been higher in previous years.

43,200 - the approximate number of times that someone has searched for the exact phrase - hot rod movie - in the last 12 months on google.

1,263,600 - the approximate number of times that someone has searched for the phrases hotrod or hot rod - in the last 12 months on google.

2,600,000 - the number of websites with the phrase "hot rod" in the Title of the page.


Does the thought of 11,000 sales really seem that out there, even before factoring in all of the general pub she got?

Not trying to be snarky, but I've only recently come to this board to get into filmmaking and my mind is blown at how narrowly many people understand very basic marketing / distribution concepts. Film isn't a special snowflake in that arena.

I'd like to think I've spent plenty enough time researching distribution in all forms (way too much time, honestly) and I don't see it as being narrow. I see it as there just isn't enough rock solid information available to base certain things on ,and that automagically creates a stigma around the act of distribution and sales which is negative.

I know you can do well if you have the right product, and hell even if you have the wrong product sometimes.

My skepticism mostly came from not seeing any Netflix or Redbox deals, etc. BUT BUT BUT your google sleuthing reveals that there was even more PR than what she linked in the thread, more than likely because she's too busy doing actual work than to keep up with it. =P Paint me slightly jealous, and thanks for posting that.

Anyway, this is why it'd be great to have our successful members open up to the community and tell, but I'm beginning to realize WHY they don't do that... oh well.

 

[Barry_Green]

I'm never intending to call anyone a liar, absolutely not, just that personally I'll take it with a grain of salt if I can't find any literature or some sort of proof to the claim. Press release, PR, whatever works.

Well, considering that she herself is the one personally selling the DVDs, then how is that not equivalent to a press release?

Look, the way Faith's doing it is about the only way an indie is ever going to see any substantial money from their project. Sure it might make someone's ego feel good to say that some distributor picked up their film, but the odds of that filmmaker ever seeing a dime are pretty dang low. Whereas when Faith is selling the DVDs herself, she is the one receiving the cash. Not some distributor with shady accounting, not some vague allocated percentage of royalties due to a package film sale, but cash on the barrelhead.

And there's expenses too, packaging and marketing and shipping and replication and the expenses she encounters due to her travelling 4-wall exhibition plan. But I have zero doubt that she's making it work and has accomplished what she said she accomplished.

And truthfully -- whose business is it anyway? Why SHOULD she tell us how much she made off her private venture?

 

[Barry_Green]

It might be a standard now, but when I first ordered mine which was over a year before it actually shipped, the skeptical posts, which if you go into the archives of sites like RedUser.net and cinematography.com are there for the record.

I can back that up, I was one of the early adopters (#346) and I can tell you the industry buzz on Red was that it was a scam, it was too good to be true, it wasn't going to work, it was made by a guy who makes sunglasses, etc... there was hysteria and mania among the disenfranchised, and scorn and skepticism among those who had been around for a while.

 

[craigbowman]

Kholi: Don't sell yourself short. I know you work with Sam and Jesse and was very pleased with the work they did on "The ORE". Bought a copy of it when it became available and surprisingly only then did I see their winning dvxuser entry "Texas Fortune". What the latest with "Superseeds"?

 

[Kholi]

Well, considering that she herself is the one personally selling the DVDs, then how is that not equivalent to a press release?

It's press release, I'm referring to trade press. Granted, that isn't the only press around, but it is reliable.

Look, the way Faith's doing it is about the only way an indie is ever going to see any substantial money from their project. Sure it might make someone's ego feel good to say that some distributor picked up their film, but the odds of that filmmaker ever seeing a dime are pretty dang low. Whereas when Faith is selling the DVDs herself, she is the one receiving the cash. Not some distributor with shady accounting, not some vague allocated percentage of royalties due to a package film sale, but cash on the barrelhead.

I don't disagree at all, especially after having done so much research and hearing stories first hand from filmmakers. If anything, I'd say that self distro should be your plan from the get-go, and if you happen to strike gold then so be it.

And there's expenses too, packaging and marketing and shipping and replication and the expenses she encounters due to her travelling 4-wall exhibition plan. But I have zero doubt that she's making it work and has accomplished what she said she accomplished.

I don't have any doubt about that either. =P Hence, the yellow note.

And truthfully -- whose business is it anyway? Why SHOULD she tell us how much she made off her private venture?

Nope, you're right, it's not really anyone's business. I think people (filmmakers like myself) WANT to know, though. Nobody's saying she HAS to tell anyone, but if I polled this board I'm pretty confident that over ninety percent would love to hear those details, because it offers some insight into the opposing ideal that you can never make money from this.

Faith sold 11K copies, cool, she's a case study. Who wouldn't want to know about that?

But, right, it's her private venture and (stated) she doesn't have to tell anyone anything. Never alluded to the idea that she had to.

I do appreciate those that do put it out there, I know I feel much more encouraged about it when I can see some data. It all begins to seem a lot less elusive, not as much a doomsday prophecy as most people would warn you. xDDD

 

[Barry_Green]

My skepticism mostly came from not seeing any Netflix or Redbox deals

Deuce of Spades is listed on Netflix, but isn't available yet, which leads me to think that it's still selling. I wouldn't put a film on Netflix unless I didn't have any other way to sell it. Getting a dime or whatever per view, vs. pocketing $19 per DVD, well, especially on a niche product like she's got, it seems like direct sales is definitely the way to go. There aren't likely tens of millions of potential customers for DoS. She's reaching those that there are through word of mouth, direct advertisements and PR directly to the community, social marketing, etc. What more would/could a distributor do for her? Why go to a distributor unless they have the ability to sell massive copies to the masses? The masses aren't going to buy millions of copies of DoS, so -- forget the distributor. They can't really do anything for you other than suck up what profits could potentially have been made.

For a general release, a distributor makes more sense. For a targeted niche, the way Faith's doing it is the way to go. And it's not all profit, she's been working full time (may still be, I don't know) to get the word out and do her roadshows and whatnot. Anything that lady has received, she got from working hard.

 

[Kholi]

Don't sell yourself short. I know you work with Sam and Jesse and was very pleased with the work they did on "The ORE". Bought a copy of it when it became available and surprisingly only then did I see their winning dvxuser entry "Texas Fortune".

It's a bad habit, haha.

I sincerely hope that my neutral posting position didn't come off as negative, because that's not what the intent was. I agree with just about everything said, and I am pretty damned happy for Faith and what she's done. I told her that on the phone when she called me with some gear trouble out of the blue. =P

 

[Kholi]

Deuce of Spades is listed on Netflix, but isn't available yet, which leads me to think that it's still selling. I wouldn't put a film on Netflix unless I didn't have any other way to sell it. Getting a dime or whatever per view, vs. pocketing $19 per DVD, well, especially on a niche product like she's got, it seems like direct sales is definitely the way to go. There aren't likely tens of millions of potential customers for DoS. She's reaching those that there are through word of mouth, direct advertisements and PR directly to the community, social marketing, etc. What more would/could a distributor do for her? Why go to a distributor unless they have the ability to sell massive copies to the masses? The masses aren't going to buy millions of copies of DoS, so -- forget the distributor. They can't really do anything for you other than suck up what profits could potentially have been made.

For a general release, a distributor makes more sense. For a targeted niche, the way Faith's doing it is the way to go. And it's not all profit, she's been working full time (may still be, I don't know) to get the word out and do her roadshows and whatnot. Anything that lady has received, she got from working hard.

No argument out of me on any point. Although, you don't need to go through a distro company to net a Netflix or Redbox deal, and I know you know this, but just throwing that out there for others to see if they were wondering.

My stance, and it just sort of mutated into this late last year, is that if you've managed to pop out a watchable feature film with an audience that can be defined (even if it's more than one demo) for 50K and under, you should be self distributing your product. It isn't a back up plan anymore, and nobody gives a damned who bought your movie.

That world is dying more and more each month, and there isn't enough supply for the demand. Forget about distribution companies, do it yourself.

EDIT EDIT: And, yeah, Netflix is probably the very last place I would go before it ends up on the net for "free" (with advertisements).

 

[Barry_Green]

It's press release, I'm referring to trade press. Granted, that isn't the only press around, but it is reliable.

But how would the trade press have anything to report? They can only know what she tells them. Don't you see that? She is the distributor. She is the only person on earth who knows how many copies have sold. Well, I guess you could try some subterfuge and get some info out of her DVD replicator, but even then that'd be iffy because who knows how many she still has in stock. But if she orders 1,000 at a time and has re-ordered twenty times, that would probably be a pretty good indicator.

Point being, the trade press only knows what they are told by the companies involved. And since Faith is the only company involved, she is THE last word.

Nope, you're right, it's not really anyone's business. I think people (filmmakers like myself) WANT to know, though. Nobody's saying she HAS to tell anyone, but if I polled this board I'm pretty confident that over ninety percent would love to hear those details, because it offers some insight into the opposing ideal that you can never make money from this.

We'd all want to know, we're all curious, but it really truly isn't any of our business, that's all I'm saying. She has no obligation to go opening up her tax returns to any of us, and I think if any of us had our personal finances unveiled for all to see we'd be pretty concerned and uncomfortable with that, right?

Point is, Faith is about the ONLY filmmaker I know of who's actually divulged that information! She's getting doubted, but -- who else has revealed their info? What other filmmaker do we know of who has publicly come out and said "yeah, I made this film for $30,000 and I sold it for $300,000 cash." You never hear that. You'll hear some inflated trade deals being reported at Sundance, but when it comes to how much the actual individual person received, I don't know that I've ever heard a real number made public. I've spoken to enough guys to know that what they tell me in private never lines up with what the companies announce though.

Only other guy I can think of who's been as forthcoming is Adamo Cultraro, and I don't recall -- did he ever reveal what his personal revenues were from Corrado? I mean, that guy told us every penny and every detail, but I don't recall that when it came to the final sale and the real revenues, I don't recall him ever saying...

Faith sold 11K copies, cool, she's a case study. Who wouldn't want to know about that?

Well, remember that it was probably at least a year ago that that number was given. Might be double that by now.

I do appreciate those that do put it out there, I know I feel much more encouraged about it when I can see some data. It all begins to seem a lot less elusive, not as much a doomsday prophecy as most people would warn you. xDDD

I think the prospect is there for those who work harder than anyone has ever worked in their lives. And I think for those who want to just sell their film to a distributor, the "doomsday prophecy" is probably an extremely more likely scenario.

 

[Gary Huff]

And I think for those who want to just sell their film to a distributor, the "doomsday prophecy" is probably an extremely more likely scenario.

Especially those "I can put this $20,000 film on my credit card...when I make millions I'll just pay it off!" people.

 

[Barry_Green]

My stance, and it just sort of mutated into this late last year, is that if you've managed to pop out a watchable feature film with an audience that can be defined (even if it's more than one demo) for 50K and under, you should be self distributing your product. It isn't a back up plan anymore, and nobody gives a damned who bought your movie.

But ... but ... what about the "prestige" of having your film in Blockbuster? Doesn't that "legitimize" you as a filmmaker?

I'd rather hear about the revenue figures from the Polish Brothers' iTunes film, than about some guy who made a $3,000 turd that sold four copies to Blockbuster, even if it was to a "legitimate distributor"...

That world is dying more and more each month, and there isn't enough supply for the demand. Forget about distribution companies, do it yourself.

I think there's a huge difference between "there isn't enough supply for the demand" and "there isn't enough supply". There's more than enough crap out there. The world absolutely does NOT need one more steaming pile of cinematic crap. That market's saturated, full, over, and dead. I think the world has pretty loudly spoken and they'd much rather watch 30 seconds of "piano cat" than 90 minutes of some mumblecore angst horsecrap drama shot on a DSLR for $500.

There is NO demand for that type of product.

But there will always be demand, insatiable demand, for entertainment. If it's truly entertaining, the world will want to see it.

EDIT EDIT: And, yeah, Netflix is probably the very last place I would go before it ends up on the net for "free" (with advertisements).

Not saying netflix is bad, just saying that for most folks it's probably not likely going to be the golden ticket. But it will let you reach lots more people than just about any other method, so if your focus is on getting SEEN and not on getting PAID, netflix can be hugely valuable.

 

[Kholi]

But how would the trade press have anything to report? They can only know what she tells them. Don't you see that? She is the distributor. She is the only person on earth who knows how many copies have sold. Well, I guess you could try some subterfuge and get some info out of her DVD replicator, but even then that'd be iffy because who knows how many she still has in stock. But if she orders 1,000 at a time and has re-ordered twenty times, that would probably be a pretty good indicator.

Haha, I wouldn't try any subterfuge. Curiosity doesn't go THAT deep. I do get what you're saying, I'm using Trade as a pretty loose term. Basically, information, and the information's been through scarce channels.

That's really all that I'm saying, personally. No harm, no foul.

We'd all want to know, we're all curious, but it really truly isn't any of our business, that's all I'm saying. She has no obligation to go opening up her tax returns to any of us, and I think if any of us had our personal finances unveiled for all to see we'd be pretty concerned and uncomfortable with that, right?

I really never said she was obligated or anything like that, though. She's not obligated to prove anything. I guess it came off that way! Which sucks.

Point is, Faith is about the ONLY filmmaker I know of who's actually divulged that information! She's getting doubted, but -- who else has revealed their info? What other filmmaker do we know of who has publicly come out and said "yeah, I made this film for $30,000 and I sold it for $300,000 cash." You never hear that.

Actually, I've seen more than a few people come out with numbers, and most were able to put it into perspective with a few links or similar. Me, personally, I wouldn't ask for it if noone did it, but I have seen it. Sometimes it's just in private (which is all good), but it's verifiable. That's the only reason I know for certain that it's a more than viable path.

And because of those people being generous (when they did not have to) with information ,others were benefited.

Nothing wrong with that, if they're willing.

Only other guy I can think of who's been as forthcoming is Adamo Cultraro, and I don't recall -- did he ever reveal what his personal revenues were from Corrado? I mean, that guy told us every penny and every detail, but I don't recall that when it came to the final sale and the real revenues, I don't recall him ever saying...

Not on this forum he didn't. But, Adam's pretty vocal elsewhere, and he just about tells all in some conversations/podcasts.

I think the prospect is there for those who work harder than anyone has ever worked in their lives. And I think for those who want to just sell their film to a distributor, the "doomsday prophecy" is probably an extremely more likely scenario.

It isnt just there for the big distro deal, though. You can find people all over the internet (the indie filmmaker's source of free info) telling you that self distro is a dead end. Only rarely do you break through the noise to something a bit more objective and satisfying. Yeah, the doomsday prophecy is filmmaking in general, and I know that isn't the truth.

So many people would have you believe it.

"If you plan on making any money you should do something else instead of filmmaking."

I've heard that one/read that one TOO many times.

ANyway, please, allow me to clear this up: I'm not saying she is obligated to share anything, by any means. Would it be pretty awesome? Yes. But, no, there's no obligation.

The skepticism did cause someone to post some google analytics that shaped my perspective. That's a good thing. I don't think skepticism is a bad thing.

 

[Gary Huff]

Not saying netflix is bad, just saying that for most folks it's probably not likely going to be the golden ticket. But it will let you reach lots more people than just about any other method, so if your focus is on getting SEEN and not on getting PAID, netflix can be hugely valuable.

And even moreso, sometimes you need to come to terms with the fact that you might not get paid on a particular venture, so you may as well get seen.

 

[Kholi]

But ... but ... what about the "prestige" of having your film in Blockbuster? Doesn't that "legitimize" you as a filmmaker?

LOL. Blockbuster = Prestige? What a world that would be. xD But, just saying, Blockbuster kiosks are a good place to go to get seen, so are Redbox kiosks.

And, well, they pay pretty decently from what I've researched.

I'd rather hear about the revenue figures from the Polish Brothers' iTunes film, than about some guy who made a $3,000 turd that sold four copies to Blockbuster, even if it was to a "legitimate distributor"...

THIS is what I was talkin' about concerning trades. The Polish Brothers' iTunes adventure was publicized pretty well, but granted they were already famous so yeah.

There is NO demand for that type of product.

That's a pretty solid point. There isn't a demand for that stuff... unless you're Asylum. xD

Not saying netflix is bad, just saying that for most folks it's probably not likely going to be the golden ticket. But it will let you reach lots more people than just about any other method, so if your focus is on getting SEEN and not on getting PAID, netflix can be hugely valuable.

You can get the same exposure, and perhaps more engagement, out of Redbox or Blockbuster kiosks. I say that Netflix is the last resort because of how little they license for now. Just monetarily speaking.

 

[Kholi]

I just realized, this went SUPER far off topic... maybe it should go to the Cafe?