How do you get the "video look" in a 23.98 timeline edit?

B

BrooklynGlen

New member
Hello all! I'm a newbie here on this and dealing with mixing frame rates and such, so please bear with me.

1) Basically, I'm wondering how you can achieve the "normal video" look (that 60i video produces when you use 60i captured at 29.97 and edited in a 29.97 timeline), in a 23.98 timeline instead of a 29.97 timeline. Can you just use 60i footage captured at 29.97 in a 23.98 timeline and have that "normal video" look? I'm assuming you can't do this without somehow converting something, but I don't know what to do to keep this "normal video" look. I assume that the motion in this would be off as you are editing in 23.98 instead of 29.97. What can I do about this? Do you use the 60i footage and capture at a different frame rate to edit in 23.98 to get that "video look"? I read about using www.natress.com's Standard Conversion "G Film Converter", but from what I understand this will convert my 60i footage so I can use it in a 23.98 timeline, but it will also convert it to 23.98p footage, therefore making it look like film and not video?

2) Also, just to know, since I've already starting capturing some of the footage, when you remove the advanced pulldown from 24pa footage, am I correct in believing that it is only removed in the capture and thus, you have 23.98 footage in your computer, but your tape is untouched and still the same at 29.97 with the flagged frames?

Reason I ask is basically that I want to have the possibility of going to a film out, but I am editing with 60i, 24p (normal) and 24pa (advanced) and to complicate things further (since I am working with other B-roll footage too and I, unfortunately shot some of my footage in the wrong frame rates, I will need to convert these frame rates to different frame rates depending upon whether I'm looking to create a "film look" or "video look".

I wrote a long explanation which I can and will post, if this shorter version doesn't come up with the answer. I've tried searching for the answer and have read Graeme Nattress' article on Ken Stone's website as well as others but haven't been able to find it out. I think I've understood much of what to do with 24p and 24pa footage, but haven't been able to find out or understand what to do about this.

This looks like its a great site here, so thanks to all. Thanks in advance for all your help! :beer:
 
I guess as long as you are editing on a 23.98 timeline you'll always get a somewhat "filmish" look so if you are determined to get a video look the only thing I can think of if removing the pulldown on your 24p clips and changing the framerate of those clips to 60i using something like twixtor or Compressor 2. Then edit the whole thing in 29.97. For the film version you could change the framerate of the 60i clips to 24p using Twixtor or Compressor 2 and edit in 24p. This sounds like quite a lot of work and the converted clips in both versions could turn out to look pretty shitty but that is the only way I can think of. Hopefully someone comes up with a better way so we both learn ...
 
I had a huge problem with framerates and such in my last production. If you have access to a TV monitor that is your best bet, becuase you can test different methods of trying to get the "video look". There is a way to hook up your normal TV to your editing system through your camera. Hook up the firewire to your camera and your computer. Then hook up your analog connections (Yellow, Red, White, cords) from your camera to your TV. Then just start trying to see what you can do to get the video look. The problem I had with my production is that I caputred my footage in regular NTSC (29.97) and was editing it in 23.98. It made the footage all "motion-blurry". So be on the lookout for that little problem. I would just try rendering it and see what happens, hopefully this might help.
 
Basically, you can't. The 23.98fps timeline gives a film look no-matter-what. All you can do is make the video look more videoy, perhaps adding scanlines and blowing out highlights and adding fake sharpness.

If you edit in a 60i timeline, you can leave video as video, and just use the 24p with 3:2 pulldown and it will look like a mix of video and film

Graeme
 
if you want the video look just shoot at 60i. The whole point of 24 is to capture the film look.

Your tape remain just the way they were no matter how you capture (unless you write out on top of your original)

Everyone with a DVX should give some real thought to what they want to accomplish with their project and decide on a correct frame rate. There's plenty of information available to help with that decision. Using different frame rates is just asking for trouble.
 
I just thought of something pretty ghetto, but would work. Edit your 24 footage in the 24 timeline. Then open a new 30 frame timeline and import your 60i footage. Then open a new 24 timeline, in this one put all the footage that comes after the 60i footage. Then what you do is export the first 24 timeline do a dv tape. Then export the 60i timeline, then the 2nd 24 timeline. Matching up the audio would be a hassle but you would get exactly the look you were looking for, although the method is a bit ghetto.
 
rr, I don't quite understand how your (truly ghetto) method would be any different to just adding a pulldown to the 24p stuff ... In my understanding you would end up with the same (somewhat "film-ish") look you'd get if you just threw the 24p stuff in a 60i timeline with a 2:3 pulldown. Correct me if i'm wrong.
 
Hi everyone, thanks for all your comments. So from what I'm gathering is that you can not really use 60i footage in a 23.98 timeline and have it look like video would "normally" look? The reason I wanted to use a 23.98 timeline is to have the option of getting the cleanest and highest resolution film out with the 24pa footage, but still have a mixture of both video and film looks in it, but it doesn't seem like I can do so from everyone's comments.

So I'm guessing my best (and only?) option if I want both video and film looks in my project is to just edit in a 29.97 timeline.

So now my process should be (to make sure I'm doing it correctly):

1) Edit on a 29.97 timeline
2) Capture 60i footage at normal NTSC 29.97 (to retain video qualities)
3) Capture 24p footage at normal NTSC 29.97 (to get film like qualities)
4) Either capture 24pa footage with pulldown removed onto a 23.98 timeline playback onto a new tape adding in normal 3:2 pulldown and then recapture form this new master tape or use the Standards Conversion from (yours, Graeme!) www.nattress.com. (these 2 options would enable me to use 24pa footage in a 29.97 timeline and keep its film like qualities?)

Now if my footage is in the wrong mode from the way I'd like it to look, I'd:

5) again use the Standards Conversion to convert 60i to 24p or 24p to 60i and edit the converted footage that I will then import into the project and edit on the 29.97 timeline?

Is all this correct?

And last but not least:

6) Am I correct in assuming that I can still output a NTSC 29.97 timeline to film down the line if I need to, though the 24p footage from it might not be as clean and high quality as if it were used outputted straight from a 23.98 timeline with 24pa footage?

Thanks again for all your help guys!
 
I don't think you'll need to put your 24pa footage back on a tape. The difference 24pa/24p is almost not noticable on a 60i timeline and if you really want to change it to 2:3 pulldown you can take the 24pa clip (pulldown removed) to After Effects or simply throw it into the 60i timeline and FCP will add the pulldown you select in the system settings. So basically I would simply edit it all on a 60i timeline, but I have no idea what the best way to go to film would be ...
 
the difference in the ghetto method is that your 60i footy would be in a 30 frame per second time line instead of a 24 timeline. It's a ghetto method but you would have what you wanted on a Mini DV tape. Like I said, this the Ghetto method.
 
Can anyone else confirm if what I wrote above to be the correct way to go about this? And can anyone answer and confirm my question (Q#6 above) about whether you can transfer a 29.97 tape to film?

So Moebius, is that a confirmation from you that what I wrote is what I would need to do (except for not needing to put it back onto tape part)?

rreichenfeld - Thanks for your suggestion about your "ghetto method", but I don't think I will try it as I will probably be editing both the video and film looks together very frequently (ex: many cuts from the video look to the film look and vice versa) and it sounds like your solution would only be practical if the video and film looks footage were mostly kept separate from each other.
 
You can go from 29.97 to film but since film runs at 24 fps you (or transfer house) will have to do a rate conversion where you will lose quality. That's why the DVX has 24fps option and why pre-DVX people would shoot on PAL (25fps) so they didn't have to go through that process.
 
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