How do I get 'real' film-like sound

B

Bill_Bolton

Well-known member
I was just watching the 'making of X-Men' and there is a part where the take actually sounds like stuff I've shot (lot of bg noise plus the dialog). However the released movie has a very different sound. It's the scene in Xaviers office.

I know about ADR, but without that, what are the steps to building a proper sound in post? I'm shooting with a boomed Senn 419 thru a Sound Devices 302 mixer and have Vegas and Sound Forge.

Thanks,
Bill
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound


What did you hear behind the scenes are not pointed properly mikes , just shitty ambient that usially shoot during the take or fur away during the rehearsals , good lavs with good overbooming and qualificati editing , mixing , fx and music could bring you to dissent even it was shoot on lousy location , when nothing working or there is bunch of noise from fans and moving cars the adr or wild lines after shooting .
The biggest secret is to rule over your location sound noise (acco , people ,cars ets), this is much important then what mike you are using ( you other hand use not existing mike model( 419) ) .
Another and not less important is the audio chain ( that's important on very silent sets and not in the urbane noise --mike , preamp, mixer, recorder .
N for the main coarse and the most important !! -The people who are doing the sound for you -are they dedicated , are they willing to give you more then you able to pay ,are they care for the final result -usually the money is making those designees much easier but when you on the low budget the person is becoming to be the key question .
Dont take these who come only for pay check even they good -take these who love the buisness and come in the same sum
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

Thanks Oleg. you're right - It's a Senn 416 :o Should I plan on using lavs at the same time as a boom?

My team is very dedicated if a little short on experience.

But my root question is; what is the process in post? Should I lay down a track of ambient, then the cleaned up dialog, followed by effects and music? Am I missing any tools?
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

I suggest you do something that not too many people do, but should. Hire your post sound person right now. Ask them what they want. They'll tell you exactly how they will want the sound.

Besides that...get as good a recording of dialogue as you can. Record backgrounds whenever possible. Record any sound on production that is important to have whenever possible. Your sound editor will like you.

-Dave
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

Hire? Like in a planned production? This is a true DIY production. My objective here is to learn by doing. I've got a great group of student cast and crew, but I am the one with the most knowledge. My experience is mostly on the camera and lighting side and now I need to get educated on the audio side. We have no firm production schedule other than we try to get the very best we can, no matter how long the production may take. So any techniques and tips on the audio side will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Bill
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

you dont use lav if it not nessesery , but sometimes in wide shotes you mix them with boom mike to have more meat on your sound , sometimes the ambient noice is to high and the sound that reflect from the buildings and roud is making the boom be usless -there are never straight rools in that buisness only good preperation , intelegence and talent .
try tookeep your dialog as clean as possible , remember you can alwais add anithing you like , you cant remove everithing you wont , every noise that will sit over your dialog will decrias the clarety and feel after you will mess it with any noice reduction programs , make as much ass posible wild trecks on location as close it could done for the time it been shoot , some acters could not do the same even after 20 minutes , record as much as possible room tons and atmosfer , try to give your team the best conditions to bring the product ,
if you are shooting 2 camera shotes dont make wide and tite in the same time , plann the shotes that at list the close and mid would be done together and the wides after .
make clear the other members of the set that the siound is emportant as apicture even they cant see it :-)
have fun , make a good one . keep the food good that what usially motivate soundmans .

and yes like dave sad , check with the post before what they wont to get extra
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

But my root question is; what is the process in post?  Should I lay down a track of ambient, then the cleaned up dialog, followed by effects and music?  Am I missing any tools?
Click to expand...

I don't know, man, don't you think thats oversimplifying? Soud Editing is a whole parallel universe for me, and I just don't dare tapping it. It's hard, it requires a lot of Ear, time and patience (and as with any sondperson, a love for hearing the little noises of the world - call it nerdy, it's still invaluable). The key thing is: Editability. Record your audio as isolated as you can, so you can edit it in different tracks. Record ambiences / room tones and any other souds that will give you UNITY, so you can hide your cuts and crossfades behind the constant sounding backgroud. Get texture, coverage of EVERYTHING you hear that might be useful to characterize the space or the action. Get away with noise in your soundtrack. Everynoise that appears in your soudntrack will have to be covered because it will have to be in your final mix. You can't separate what you record toghether.

Hope it helps...
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

I guess it may be oversimplfying if you don't know what is involved. That's why I'm asking. ;D
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

[quote author=Bill_Bolton link=board=audio;num=1100603739;start=0#7 date=11/16/04 at 14:02:58]I guess it may be oversimplfying if you don't know what is involved.  That's why I'm asking.   ;D[/quote]

Which is why I suggested that you get an actual sound person involved. It's hard to learn stuff if you don't know what to learn, or how to learn it. If you get a good post person involved, then they can guide you through what they like to have. It sounds like you are doing this just to get some experience under your belt, which is great, and I wish more people did it. Maybe shoot with no sync sound at all on production, and none in post (did I just say that?!?!). The only reason I say this is because that this will be one thing you won't have to deal with, so you can concentrate on other things, like lighting, and stuff. On your next project, bring a sound team in. It's hard to learn everything when you are just starting out because it can get overwhelming really fast, and then you'll realize you are in way over your head.

-Dave
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

Dave - No offense, but the cam and lighting side is what I do know. It's the sound side that is lacking. Perhaps I can find somebody to stop by and give us a quick critique.
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

where do you shoot , iam avalible fot teaching . 2 weeks you would be able to recorsd 2 million budget feuter and if not you your monety would be returned ( since i am doing it for free, so ..)
ticket + living expences or you can come here to Tel AVIV , it would cost you few coffes a day and disent meal at lunch , iam complitely free for next 2weeks :-)
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

Cool, that's an interesting offer. Especially me not knowing Tel Aviv... :D
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

Oleg, your humor is killing me. ;D

[quote author=Bill_Bolton link=board=audio;num=1100603739;start=0#9 date=11/16/04 at 15:52:50]Perhaps I can find somebody to stop by and give us a quick critique.[/quote]

I think that I meant I would look for someone local in Denver Colorado and would buy lunch, not a round trip ticket to and from Tel Aviv. But Oleg, if you're in Colorado....
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

There's a sound mixer named Dave Schaaf in the Denver area. I don't have his contact info, but he might be able to help you out. I don't know of any post people there, but there has to be someone in the area. If I had the time, I'd love to come out. I love that area.

-Dave
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

http://www.mhss.com/

snip --------------------------------
I don't know of any post people there

-------------------------------------

where do you think the high pay mixers blow their money?:-)
check the mottels in Springs
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

There are also some great books on sound design and sound mixing that can save you a lot of trouble and headache. At USC, they started us on Tom Holman's book - also the instructor, the guy who developed THX standard - Fundamentals of Cinematic Sound or something - his site is http://www.tmhlabs.com . You could pick it up for like $10 used and it would help alot in getting an overview to sound on film/video.
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

Hey if you want some advice here's some:

1. Use 2 C-Stands with arms to hold up either ends of sound blalnkets. Use the sound blankets to block wind, create smaller space, kill echo, dampen generator noise etc... Outdoors- kills wind. Indoors- helps 'fill' the room space so sound doesn't bounce off the walls as many times or even if it does, protecting the mic from the waves that bounce back.

2. always record room tone.

3. if recording sound on a separate merantz, pd4, minidisc, mixer whatever..., marry sound to image by slate.

4. leave on board mic on even if using a seperate sound system and the 'bad' sound can be used as a reference point to use as a rough track. Then you can just take the good tracks and lay it right over it....
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

5. after calling slate, let the AC or PA clear frame and settle down, then once frame AND sound is clear, then cue action. (stupid but you'd be surprised how many times this happens with eager inexperienced directors).
 
Re: How do I get 'real' film-like sound

And from what I hear, Vegas 5.0 is supposed to be the best for supporting sound editing and mixing.
 
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