Horizontal Lines on footage - DVX-100B

hgbatiz

hgbatiz

Member
I've had my DVX-100B for a few months now, don't know how I missed this but I recently shot my dogs and noticed these horizontal lines (See attached files). They appear when there is movement or when I pan. When I went back to some of my other work I noticed that they are on all the footage shot with the DVX. I use my GL2 for B-roll and it does not do this. Can someone please tell me what it is and how to get rid of it. Also, I've tried shotting in all different modes..with different settings...and I get the same result each time.

Thanks,
Hector

pooch-move.jpg


cam-pan.jpg
 
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Vincent:
I appreciate your quick response, however, as I mentioned I've shot with ALL different settings and I still get these lines. Honestly, I don't feel that they should be part of any "normal" operation.
 
I was about to ask: which NLE, and what framerate is set on it?

That looks like two interlaced frames being smooshed together.
 
I tried it both directly connected to my G5 through FCP, and I also connected it to my TV set. Same results. It's the camera. I'm hoping it's just a setting. Is there a way to do a complete reset of the camera's software without messing things up?
 
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If you de-interlace in post this shouldn't happen. Unless I'm totally missing something here, in which case it'd be informative to me as well.

-Kegan
 
Are these frame grabs from the output of your NLE?

If you play interlaced video on a progressive scan monitor or avi/quicktime that has not been saved as progressive or deinterlaced you will see the the lines in areas of motion.

This should not occur if you play interlaced output on a standard TV or progressive output on a progressive monitor (LCD or Plasma. )

Check in your NLE output module that if you are rendering NTSC (or PAL) that you select lower field first. Or as metioned above delinterlace the footage on outputing the file for a progressive display devide.

S Cannon
 
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scanon:
Yes. These are screen grabs from rendered quicktime files out of FCP. And you hit it right on the nose. I back to the footage in FCP and de-interlaced it and the lines all dissapeared. So, if I'm shooting in 24p then I guess I'll have to de-interlace each time I capture. Any idea why this did not happen with my GL2 shooting in progressive mode?
 
[SIZE=+0]The GL2 does not shoot (capture 24p). The DVX shoots whole frames in any of the progressive modes but inserts 2:3 pulldown when it writes to tape or outputs through the cameras video out. This makes the footage compatible with display on and NTSC display at 29.97. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]I use Premiere Pro but you can record 24p and edit in a 29.97 timeline if you intend to display the images on standard TV. You would not have to deinterlace the footage. If you output as progressive or deinterlaced from the 29.97 timeline you will not see the lines when displaying on a progressive scan device. Your video may soften a bit[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]If you capture and edit in a 24p timeline (23.976) your natural output will be progressive scan and look good on a non-interlaced display. You should also retain the option to output as NTSC 29.97 with pulldown added back by the NLE so you could display on a standard TV.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]If you plan distribution via DVD for display that's compatible for any TV then shoot 24p for the film look and edit in a 29.97 timeline. Output as NTSC 29.97[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]If you are producing for web or progressive scan edit in 24p and output as progressive. Note that DVD players that are progressive scan will play the DVD correctly and if they detect an interlaced device (standard TV) they will automatically add pull down so the image displays correctly. If the DVD is not progressive scan and you play a progressive scan DVD in it chances are it won't play or the image will look like cr*p on the TV.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]Really plan your shoot and edit to be compatible with the primary delivery method you will use.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]Good shooting,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]S cannon[/SIZE]
 
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OK; seems to be a lot of confusion here.

As for the grabs, it looks to me as though the footage was shot in 24pA and edited on a 60i (or 29.97 or 29.98; same thing) timeline. It looks like you found the judder frame, where two different moments in time are joined into a single frame. If you're going to edit on a 60i timeline, shoot 24p, not 24pA.

But there's no problem with your camera. That's just what 24p footage looks like on a 60i timeline.

If you have the option of editing in 24p, then that's what you should do, whatever you plan your final output to be -- web, DVD, back to tape, whatever. For editing in 24p, shoot 24pA. Yes, with most NLEs which can edit 24p, you can use standard 24p, too (though it's a PITA with FCP), but if you know you're going to edit in 24p, use 24pA. It's what 24pA was created for.

When you edit in 24p, you're not limiting yourself to any particular output; you can still output as anything you want.

As for DVDs, ALL Hollywood DVDs are 24p DVDs -- the movies are put down to disc as progressive. On an interlaced display, any DVD player will add pulldown. Every DVD player ever made can do this, and (almost) every Hollywood movie put to DVD has been progressive.

For a progressive display, a progressive-scan player will play only the progressive frames, at 24 fps. But a progressive-scan player will also play any interlaced DVD, too -- though an interlaced DVD may show interlace artifacts (like you see in the grabs above) on a progressive display. But not all DVD players are progressive-scan.

If you're editing in 24p, you can make a 24p DVD. It will be encoded to disc as a pure 24p file -- no pulldown added. Then, like those Hollywood DVDs, the DVD player will add pulldown for display on an interlaced TV, whether or not that player is progressive-scan.
 
Hunter007 said:
If you de-interlace in post this shouldn't happen. Unless I'm totally missing something here, in which case it'd be informative to me as well.
Click to expand...

You do not want to deinterlace 24p footage; you'll end up with a horrible mess and also gut the resolution. You want to remove pulldown, in which case, the 24 progressive frames per second will be extracted from the 60i, their integrity and full resolution intact.

If you CAN'T remove pulldown and have to edit on a 60i timeline, then shoot standard 24p and leave it exactly as it is.

But if you can, then you can output as pure progressive if you want -- no field order; it's progressive.

If you edit in 24p and want to go back to TAPE, then you don't want to "re-interlace," you want to re-insert pulldown. The necessary process will be taken care of for you. (You will not need to worry about field order when you do this.) If you're outputting for final printing (to watch), then choose 2:3 pulldown. If you plan to do further editing in 23p, the use 2:3:3:2 pulldown.
 
hgbatiz said:
scanon:
Yes. These are screen grabs from rendered quicktime files out of FCP. And you hit it right on the nose. I back to the footage in FCP and de-interlaced it and the lines all dissapeared. So, if I'm shooting in 24p then I guess I'll have to de-interlace each time I capture. Any idea why this did not happen with my GL2 shooting in progressive mode?
Click to expand...

David,

I think you have the best of intentions but the problem isn't anything related to 24P. Why? Because he shot this with a GL2. GL2's CANNOT shoot in any progressive mode (24p or 30p). They have a pseudo-progressive mode called Movie Frame Mode. It utilizes pixel shift technology to make an almost-progressive image. It's not the NLE settings, it's his camera. All of your advice is true though, it just doesn't pertain to this particular problem. It really would have helped if he'd told us it was a GL2 up front, but he didn't until halfway through the thread.
 
ovjamaica said:
David,

I think you have the best of intentions but the problem isn't anything related to 24P. Why? Because he shot this with a GL2. GL2's CANNOT shoot in any progressive mode (24p or 30p). They have a pseudo-progressive mode called Movie Frame Mode. It utilizes pixel shift technology to make an almost-progressive image. It's not the NLE settings, it's his camera. All of your advice is true though, it just doesn't pertain to this particular problem. It really would have helped if he'd told us it was a GL2 up front, but he didn't until halfway through the thread.
Click to expand...
No, he said specifically that those grabs were taken from DVX100B footage and that his GL2 does not do this:

I've had my DVX-100B for a few months now, don't know how I missed this but I recently shot my dogs and noticed these horizontal lines (See attached files). They appear when there is movement or when I pan. When I went back to some of my other work I noticed that they are on all the footage shot with the DVX. I use my GL2 for B-roll and it does not do this.
Click to expand...
Any idea why this did not happen with my GL2 shooting in progressive mode?
Click to expand...

But it does bring up something I should have pointed out --

The GL2 doesn't shoot true progressive, but its "frame" mode does record to tape the same way 30p does, so what's on the tape acts just like 30p.

The reason you don't see these interlacing artifacts with 30p, though, is that every two interlaced fields make up an actual frame, meaning, they're both fields from the same moment in time, so when combined (as when viewing on an NLE timeline), they make a whole picture, instead of being a mix of two different instances. Some 24p frames come out that way, too, but some don't -- some of the "frames" viewed on a 60i timeline will be made up of two different instances in time, and hence, you get the combing artifact. (This is the "judder" frame.)

So, that's why you'll see this with 24p, but you won't with 30p or with the "frame" mode.

(But don't let that scare you, hg! Shooting 24p is a wonderful experience -- you just need to know what's what!)
 
I'm the original poster. Just to clarify, I'm shooting with a DVX-100B and using FCP for editing.
I want to thank everyone for their input. David, thank you for all the detail you've added, this is very helpful
UPDATE: I've now tried to capture with my capture settings set to DV NTSC with Pull down removal, and the lines are still there. I've tried changing my sequence settings to 23.98 and 24 and I am still having this issue, it just changes a bit. Instead of having 3 good frams and two bad, it will have 3 good frams and one bad. It's still lame. I'm quite sure it's not that camera now.. It seems obvious that I have some setting wrong. I will continue reading to find what it is.
Thanks Again everyone for all the advise.
HGB
 
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