HHD MDP500-mini disc field recorder
- Thread starter Bluto
- Start date
I suspect that the sound quality of MD itself will not be the limiting factor, but microphones and mic techniques used. That said, MD is more or less history as compact flash recorders are smaller, cheaper and have no moving parts and can record straight PCM WAV files. Most CF recorders claim 24/96 resolutions, but in reality they also are no better than 16 bits with noisy preamps and cheap converters. So MD does not loose anything there.
MD is a compressed format, but a good one. I challenge anyone to be able to say when looking at a finished video "this was recorded with MD!" Noisy preamps would not be the fault of MD, but the designers of the unit in question.
Bigger size units always have their advantages, though; better ergonomics and metering. Depending on how much you paid for the MD unit it might be an OK deal. Remember to convert the files to 48 kHz, though, for video use.
Addendum: in a nature recordist test this unit compared favourably even to SD744 what comes to noise levels. Seems to be quite OK and apparently better in that respect than many new pocket recorders.
MD is a compressed format, but a good one. I challenge anyone to be able to say when looking at a finished video "this was recorded with MD!" Noisy preamps would not be the fault of MD, but the designers of the unit in question.
Bigger size units always have their advantages, though; better ergonomics and metering. Depending on how much you paid for the MD unit it might be an OK deal. Remember to convert the files to 48 kHz, though, for video use.
Addendum: in a nature recordist test this unit compared favourably even to SD744 what comes to noise levels. Seems to be quite OK and apparently better in that respect than many new pocket recorders.
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Noiz2
Sound Ninja
If you need some disks...
MD. If you have a good preamp and get a decent level down MD can be indistinguishable from DAT, most of the time.
Two problems I found were. On some units you don't get a proper shutdown if the battery gets low and you loose whatever you were recording. This should not be a problem with the HHB.
And some sounds, like car horn by's and bagpipes, can freak out the compression and make some very strange sounds. I suspect that this is variable depending on the box so this may or may not be a problem with the HHB. Even if it is a problem you won't come across it often, unless you record a lot of bagpipes!.
I wouldn't buy one today because I think the new flash recorders are a better deal. But if you got it for a good price, and have a good source for disks (Minidisco, if they are still in buisiness is good). then go for it.
PS
MiniDisco is still going and there seem to be plenty of places to buy disks. I would stock up though because you don't want to have to order them from Japan.
When I said "if you need disks..." I meant that I do have a fair number of unused ones sitting around if your finding it hard to get them.
And when I mentioned Flash recorders being a better deal I was talking about something like the PMD 671, which is much like the HHB as a flash recorder. The used price at TREW for this HHB is over $500.
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Noiz2
Sound Ninja
The only reason I would would be if the price was GREAT. THe one he is talking about is an excellent box. I would take it over the Zoom recorders (for dialog, not nec. for FX). MD was/is a standard format for radio journalists so there is a user base. But in general I agree. I wouldn't buy it at more than say 1/2 of the Marantz PMD 671 or the Tascam HDP2.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Yes that is a good deal. It's a very solid box by a very good company. When I was using MD as backup/ alt for dangerous situations. Recording FX it's sometimes better to be small light and invisible. Two things I found made a HUGE difference. The first was the mic pre. A good pre was a quantum leap. The HHB should have good pre's. The second thing was to stay digital. The little MD recorder I had didn't have a digital out so I bought a rack player that did.
Where did you find the HHB? I might almost be interested as a backup for the FLASH recorder. The only real downside to MD is the 44.1/16 files. The compression does an excellent job so your quality should be about what you would get out of a DAT deck. The weird artifacting that can happen in certain circumstances and the lack of easy local ways to get disks would be the real draw backs. The first may not be a problem (either because HHB found a fix or you never get the right combo of tones to trigger it) and the later may not be an issue if MD is still as huge in Japan as it was a few years ago. Also some decks can record WAV files to the large capacity MD's. Don't know if the HHB is one of them but that would eliminate the weird artifacting if it is a problem for you.
Where did you find the HHB? I might almost be interested as a backup for the FLASH recorder. The only real downside to MD is the 44.1/16 files. The compression does an excellent job so your quality should be about what you would get out of a DAT deck. The weird artifacting that can happen in certain circumstances and the lack of easy local ways to get disks would be the real draw backs. The first may not be a problem (either because HHB found a fix or you never get the right combo of tones to trigger it) and the later may not be an issue if MD is still as huge in Japan as it was a few years ago. Also some decks can record WAV files to the large capacity MD's. Don't know if the HHB is one of them but that would eliminate the weird artifacting if it is a problem for you.
Richard Crowley
Veteran
Better buy a lifetime supply of discs this week. They are likely to disappear without notice and you will be left with an expensive brick on your hands. The format is dead, Jim. All the MD support websites and forums have dried up and blown away.
Chadfish
Veteran
I still don't see why you don't just go for an H4N for 300.00 and future proof yourself. Drag & dropping files is priceless to me. I had a nice 24 bit mini disc recorder, but it was such a drag to capture the audio again (like with video tapes) after it's already recorded. You play the disc into your computer to make the flle - very time consuming. To have to record on a medium that is obsolete, and a waste of money anyway due to having no use for them after you record on them then you throw them away. It just doesn't make sense. I'd return the thing if you still can. There is no benefit to using MD any more.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Well for one thing the HHB is a better box. It is essentially the HHB DAT recorder with a MD mechanism. It has real controls etc. THe Zoom is a nice little box but it's a PITA as far as a UI. And you can't "future proof" anything with computers. The zoom is using SD cards and they may be around for awhile but I hear CF cards are at about the end. When the card du jure changes the day after tomorrow Zoom will also be a doorstop.
I'm with you on drag and drop and file based work flows. But it is also not such a bad thing to have to listen to what you recorded. But depending on software and hardware you can transfer the files off a MD. Also they are not single use. Don't know why you would throw them away. You might keep them because having a backup is actually a good thing. But you can erase them and use them again. They are basically little floppy disks.
Since it was mentioned by me among others I did a quick Google and there seems to be plenty of places still selling MD players and disks. Americans get the impression it's a dead format because it never really got big in the US. But in Japan MD was/is the CD player/MP3 player of choice. MD was HUGE in Japan. So I suspect that like Beta, which completely disappeared from the US but was going strong in asia for years, MD will be around for awhile.
Richard Crowley
Veteran
I have an HHB DAT machine and certainly it is a "better box" But for a dead format with serious media availability questions, it is just a box, no matter how good.
Of course DAT and MD are already doorstops and it is very mystifying to me why anyone would buy one in this day and age. Comparing it to Beta seems like "damning it with faint praise." It further makes one question why anyone would deliberately choose such a dead format.
There are still plenty of places online selling buggy whips. If MD is still so "big" in Japan, that seems like a good place to dump it before the supply of media disappears.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
I mostly agree but there is dead and there is Dead. There are still a lot of folks using MD. Radio journalists for one. Media IS still available. I seriously doubt that there will be much/any further development in the format but I'm not sure how that makes a big difference.
I would never/rarely recommend buying a MD today for basically your reasons. But the OP already bought it. The question wasn't IF he should get it but was it a POS. And the answer is that it's a good box and he should probably be able to use it as long as the Zoom is likely to last (have you seen the build quality on them?).
Again I basically agree but the purchase was made before the post so that isn't the OP's question. BTW Sweetwater is selling current MD recorders from Sony and Tascam.
Actually there aren't. But the point is valid as far as it goes. If what you mean is that buying into technology that is on it's way out is not usually the best choice. OK you might mean ALWAYS a bad choice. However I would disagree to a limited extent. The limit is that IF the technology your buying into has/had a LOT of support then the decline tends to go for awhile.
A case in point from my life is samplers. They were really big in post for FX work. A bit less now with DAWs able to do most of what only a sampler could do. Anyway I couldn't afford an E4 (pretty much the standard for FX) so when soft-samplers came out and were fairly affordable I bought one. I had a big library I used all the time until they ceased operations and there was no way to authorize the new computer. So I got a different one and migrated what I could and that was good for a few years before it was orphaned. By this time one could pick up a used E4 on ebay for less than I had spent on the soft-samplers. I've used that constantly since and it is still going strong. It was a completely deadend box when I bought it. I'm on a Mac and when EMU was bought by Creative Labs they dropped all the hardware and any Mac support. It uses SCSI! However it still works great. I have a bunch of Pinnacle MO drives that work well with it and I can get spare parts and replace just about anything on it. That will end one day but it has now out lived the "new" technology samplers by more than 2X and it was "dead" before they were born. MD has a really large user base and multi company support. It has no "future" but it's likely to cruse along on it's "present" for quite a few years.
So I agree that one needs to think about all the issues involved but, your a music guy. How many tube boxes and other analog gear do you have sitting around? I'm sure you wouldn't get too worried about the "dead" nature of a vintage Telefunken mic if it could be had for 1/4 of the price of a Rode. Just because it isn't being worked on anymore doesn't mean it instantly becomes a doorstop. Except with software where all too often that is the case.
So? You might get 24 bit files, but where is the beef? Take a look at the real S/N figures of these sub $1000 pocket recorders and stop kidding yourself.
MD is a semidead format, yes, but it works, the unit in question is a professional one and the price was more than right. I would also prefer it to most cheap pocket recorders: better connections and ergonomics are more important in the field than imagined sound differences. Also the mic-pres seem to be excellent if they almost match SD744 in noise levels. That alone would be much better than any pocket recorder.
Congrats to the buyer!
Thanks, guys for the input - this is an interesting discussion. As for me, I was more interested in a robust build with professional features rather than those little throw-away thingies with limited I/O capabilities. At 1/10th the price of what I Really Wanted, the outdated format doesn't bother me too much, if I can capture some excellent sound. Besides, I have a fondness for 'ancient' hardware (dvx100b, AT835b, Fostex 4-track R2R, Bolex H-16, Olympus C-8080 kit, Fender Tremolux amp, 30-yo Alvarez super-jumbo, etc.) Call me Gracie, but I'll take a classic over the newest, thank you. I'm sure I'll have many 'newbie' questions for you in the upcoming weeks, so be kind to me, will ya? Ya'll rock my world...
I have done radio documentaries with Sony MDs and still have one rack mount unit hanging around. I do not use them anymore as I have a SD722 (and 8 track Prim Orpheus with Maselec mic-pres), but I would prefer the HHD MDP500 to any modern pocket recorder for field video work. And I do have two of those, Zoom H4 and Olympus LS-10. They have their uses, too.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
I'll bite on that also because Petrus and I are so rarely in the same camp ;~)
I have a small Sony that I used for a bunch of recordings and as a backup for DAT (when I was using DAT). I was going through a MixPre as the front end so the combo was not exactly a bargain but that isn't why I was using it. I also have a Pioneer player for transferring. I was seriously looking at the HHB just before the time the PMD 671 came out. At the time the choices were pretty pricey and I had, generally, very positive results with the MD. It was used on a number of national ad's, backup for the Dalai Lama, and a couple of features. Usually for FX when I need to steal some BG's, but also getting strapped to cars and such. It went for a ride on a camel once.
The format has most of the drawbacks of DAT with out the tape related problems. You haven't fully enjoyed DAT till you spend three or four hours with tweezers and toothpicks trying to get an "eaten" tape out of a deck.
I have a small Sony that I used for a bunch of recordings and as a backup for DAT (when I was using DAT). I was going through a MixPre as the front end so the combo was not exactly a bargain but that isn't why I was using it. I also have a Pioneer player for transferring. I was seriously looking at the HHB just before the time the PMD 671 came out. At the time the choices were pretty pricey and I had, generally, very positive results with the MD. It was used on a number of national ad's, backup for the Dalai Lama, and a couple of features. Usually for FX when I need to steal some BG's, but also getting strapped to cars and such. It went for a ride on a camel once.
The format has most of the drawbacks of DAT with out the tape related problems. You haven't fully enjoyed DAT till you spend three or four hours with tweezers and toothpicks trying to get an "eaten" tape out of a deck.
Steve House
Veteran
One thing you guys haven't mentioned is while a good MD unit is fine for capturing wild sound - music recording, FX, radio interviews and reports, etc - when it comes to recording sync dialog there's a whole can of worms that opens up. As Chadfish mentioned, and similar to DAT, you can't just drop and drag the files into a media folder and drop them into the NLE timeline, they first have to be captured and converted. That, along with the compressed format, sends the timebase all wonky and sync drift can rapidly rear its head.