Hero's journey: It ain't for everyone

[Randall_Oelerich]

Good luck!

Thank you. Much writing and rewriting ahead. I wish you guys willing to deviate from the HJ the best also. Who knows, maybe your scripts will be seen as fresh and atypical and a bidding war will result and you will be smiling all the way to the bank to deposit that check-- in which case we all expect you to be inviting us wannabees here out to Red Lobster, on your tab, lol.

One course of inspiration and information I have found very insightful on this issue that you might consider taking a look at are the Dialogue series of interviews with established screenwriters who have sold and had produced a gazillion well known films (Crash, Million Dollar Baby, Transformers, Flightplan, Thelma and Louise, My Big Fat Greek Wedding, just to name a few). I bought the complete series of DVDs, then ripped them to audio to listen to while I hike/walk. Lots of useful info there from the players who have much to tell about the studio system, HJ / structuring, etc.

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

Hollywood funds non archetypical films all the time.

Could you list a few such examples here for reference / research purposes?

Are they always blockbusters? No. But that's not and shouldn't always be the point of making a film, even for the major studios.

Studio execs generally are in the business of maximizing profit whatever the budget. They know not every film can be a blockbusters (the studios do not have enough gold in their chests to fund production of only blockbusters), but they do want their films/scripts to make the studio a decent profit.

 

[polfilmblog]

I guess I agree with everyone here.

I like a good hero's journey film.

I hate tired, derivative hero's journey films.

I love a good indie film that does something different.

I hate botched indie films with no story sense.

Bill Martell had an appropriate tip today:

"Act 1: Set up the conflict.
Act 2: The conflict.
Act 3: Resolve the conflict.
No page numbers, just basic storytelling."


http://www.scriptsecrets.net/tips/tip238.htm

 

[kylekmd]

The HJ is just one archetypal journey available to us. Use any method you want, as long as it leads to a compelling story well told. If I cry at the end, I'm either a wuss or you're a great storyteller.

Recently, I've become very interested in the Virgin's Archetypal Journey of self-fulfillment (as opposed to the hero's journey of self-sacrifice). I've noticed that many of my protagonists are striving to fulfill their potential, to achieve their lifelong dream. The VJ has been used in numerous successful Hollywood films, for example Fight Club, Precious, Pretty Woman, Brokeback Mountain, Rocky and so many others.

Kim Hudson's book, The Virgin's Promise, is an excellent companion to Vogler's.

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

...
"Act 1: Set up the conflict.
Act 2: The conflict.
Act 3: Resolve the conflict.
No page numbers, just basic storytelling.".

a.k.a. Save the Cat! (Blake Snyder)
Get a cat up a tree.
Throw rocks at the cat.
Get it down from the tree.

I think Aristotle also had something to say along the same lines quite some time ago.

 

[vcassel]

Could you list a few such examples here for reference / research purposes?

Sure. Not sure which, if any, of these were picked up at the script stage, but these are all non journey films funded by major studios at the production and/or distribution stage:

Terms of Endearment - descriptive structure - Paramount Pictures - $108 million domestic

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon - descriptive with elements of parallel structure - Sony Pictures Classic and Columbia Pictures - $128 million domestic

Groundhog Day - repetitive structure - Columbia Pictures - $70 million domestic

Traffic - parallel structure - USA Films (division of Universal Pictures) - $124 million domestic

Pulp Fiction - looping structure - Miramax Films - $107 million domestic

Studio execs generally are in the business of maximizing profit whatever the budget. They know not every film can be a blockbusters (the studios do not have enough gold in their chests to fund production of only blockbusters), but they do want their films/scripts to make the studio a decent profit.

Of course! It is a business afer all. But they're also still interested in generating critical acclaim around stronger dramatic works.

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

Nice list, thank you. I am going to have to think on those films. Groundhog Day I have seen quite a few times (or was I in an endless time loop? hmm.) so knowing that film quite well I would have to say I still see a HJ in that story. But I concede on a more general points that yes there are non-HJ structures if we are talking about ensemble films, reverse structure, etc. I perhaps mistakenly was thinking we were discussing linear three act films with a protagonist seeing a goal-- for that type of structure I just do not see much beyond HJ in produced successful films. But yes, I concede there are alternative story formats that do not have to adhere to the HJ-- ensemble, reverse structure, etc); but I will do some more thinking, perhaps (or not) there are HJs embedded even within some of the films you listed.

EDIT: I just took at look at Groundhog Day, the plot synopsis for the story on Wikipedia, pulled it into a text document and annotated it-- sure seems to have a fairly typical hero's journey-- flawed protagonist (defining need), inciting incident, call to adventure to a far off land, refusal of the call, acceptance of the call, romantic subplot, want, need (lesson to be learned), obstacles, midpoint/change, setback, hero as savior / death and resurrection of hero, climax, death of hero, resurrection of hero, return to the village with the Elixir, resolution. The whole shebang. Actually a nice example of a HJ.

Sure. Not sure which, if any, of these were picked up at the script stage, but these are all non journey films funded by major studios at the production and/or distribution stage:

Terms of Endearment - descriptive structure - Paramount Pictures - $108 million domestic
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon - descriptive with elements of parallel structure - Sony Pictures Classic and Columbia Pictures - $128 million domestic
Groundhog Day - repetitive structure - Columbia Pictures - $70 million domestic
Traffic - parallel structure - USA Films (division of Universal Pictures) - $124 million domestic
Pulp Fiction - looping structure - Miramax Films - $107 million domestic

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

Hey! They stole my journey for that story, at least the story of my life as a teen in high school! I want some royalties from that book on the virgin's journey! lol.

...Recently, I've become very interested in the Virgin's Archetypal Journey ...

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

a.k.a. Save the Cat! (Blake Snyder)
Get a cat up a tree.
Throw rocks at the cat.
Get it down from the tree.

I think Aristotle also had something to say along the same lines quite some time ago.

Aristotle wrote "Save the Goat", wherein he claims that a goat has a beginning, middle, end, and along with unity of action, you will come up with a good Goat Song.

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

Aristotle wrote "Save the Goat", wherein he claims that a goat has a beginning, middle, end, and along with unity of action, you will come up with a good Goat Song.

That is FUNNY! I needed a chuckle, lots of computer issues today, arrgghh!

 

[odetotud]

I don't think the hero's journey is available for every story. Hollywood simply wants the traditional three act structure. I feel the hero's journey is a more specific version of the 3 act structure.

 

[texvanwinkle]

Randall:

Congrats on the hard work thus far and good luck with the script. Putting the time in before you even start writing is certainly a big leg up to a more cohesive, more satisfying script, at least in my experience. I spent a year researching and outlining my first script, an ensemble WWII piece. Because of that prep, the first draft, which I wrote over a long Thanksgiving holiday, dawn to dark, took me only five days. Knowing your story before you start writing is definitely key for me. I think you'll find it incredibly valuable to have done that.

Now, as for your challenge to come up with a list of top-grossing movies that haven't followed the hero's journey, I decided to take a look at the top grossing movies of all time, adjusted for inflation (from BoxOfficeMojo.com). Again, I believe what you're describing as the hero's journey--at least the way you described it to me in our first discussion about it--is so diluted it could apply almost to any story, in which case it no longer has any meaningful connection to the actual hero's journey as described by Campbell in The Hero with a Thousand Faces.

So I'll compromise on the most accepted interpretation of it by industry standards: Christopher Vogler's. (Who, again, I think waters it down too much himself.) Vogler's essential steps are these:

(Act 1)

1. Ordinary World - The hero, uneasy, uncomfortable or unaware, is introduced sympathetically so the audience can identify with the situation or dilemma. The hero is shown against a background of environment, heredity, and personal history. Some kind of polarity in the hero’s life is pulling in different directions and causing stress.
2. Call to Adventure - Something shakes up the situation, either from external pressures or from something rising up from deep within, so the hero must face the beginnings of change.
3. Refusal of the Call - The hero feels the fear of the unknown and tries to turn away from the adventure, however briefly. Alternately, another character may express the uncertainty and danger ahead.
4. Meeting the Mentor - The hero comes across a seasoned traveler of the worlds who gives him or her training, equipment, or advice that will help on the journey. Or the hero reaches within to a source of courage and wisdom.
5. Crossing the Threshold - At the end of Act One, the hero commits to leaving the Ordinary World and entering a new region or condition with unfamiliar rules and values.

(Act 2)

6. Tests, Allies, Enemies - The hero is tested and sorts out allegiances in the Special World.
7. Approaching the Inmost Cave - The hero and newfound allies prepare for the major challenge in the Special world.
8. The Crisis / Supreme Ordeal - Near the middle of the story, the hero enters a central space in the Special World and confronts death or faces his or her greatest fear. Out of the moment of death comes a new life.
9. Seizing the Reward - The hero takes possession of the treasure won by facing death. There may be celebration, but there is also danger of losing the treasure again.

(Act 3)

10. The Road Back - About three-fourths of the way through the story, the hero is driven to complete the adventure, leaving the Special World to be sure the treasure is brought home. Often a chase scene signals the urgency and danger of the mission.
11. The Climax / Resurrection - At the climax, the hero is severely tested once more on the threshold of home. He or she is purified by a last sacrifice, another moment of death and rebirth, but on a higher and more complete level. By the hero’s action, the polarities that were in conflict at the beginning are finally resolved.
12. Return with the Elixir - The hero returns home or continues the journey, bearing some element of the treasure that has the power to transform the world as the hero has been transformed.

Or more visually:

(from http://www.dramatica.com/theory/articles/Dram-Vogler.htm)


Keeping those in mind, and starting from the top, tell me how that storyline applies to the character arc/storyline in these 28 of the top 30 highest-grossing films of all time, numbered by their position in the list:

#1 - Gone with the Wind
(#2 - Star Wars - No argument.)
#3 - The Sound of Music
#4 - E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial
#5 - The Ten Commandments
#6 - Titanic
#7 - Jaws
#8 - Doctor Zhivago
#9 - The Exorcist
#10 - Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
#11 - 101 Dalmatians
#12 - The Empire Strikes Back (this is arguable, but I think it misses more parts than it contains)
#13 - Ben Hur
(#14 - Avatar - I haven't seen it, so can't pronounce on it.)
#15 - Return of the Jedi
#16 - The Sting
#17 - Raiders of the Lost Ark
#18 - Jurassic Park
#19 - The Graduate
#20 - The Phantom Menace
#21 - Fantasia
#22 - The Godfather
#23 - Forrest Gump
#24 - Mary Poppins
#25 - The Lion King (I've read this is supposedly a classic HJ template as guided by Vogler himself, but I'll be danged if I can make it fit Vogler's template.)
#26 - Grease (Heh. Heh heh.)
#27 - Thunderball
#28 - The Dark Knight
#29 - The Jungle Book
#30 - Sleeping Beauty

Can you find elements of the journey in the stories of those films? Sure. A refusal of the call here, a mentor there, committing to a path with consequences to follow. Of course, because those elements are not the sole property of the hero's journey.

But the hero's journey storyline, according to Vogler's own template, and certainly according to the universal template Campbell claims exists in mythology, require the vast majority of those elements, in that order, because it's the presence of those components in that order that give the journey meaning and transformative power. And I challenge you to argue that the 28 films above--and the majority of the films on the rest of the list--have any connection beyond random elements to that definitive hero's journey. If that list is any indication, the vast majority of successful films DON'T follow the hero's journey, properly understood.

What they *do* follow, more or less, is the traditional story structure of set-up, conflict, and resolution, uniquely and ingeniously applied to a particular character and the particular conflict he is tasked with solving. Tell the story that makes sense for the characters you have and their respective conflicts. Sometimes that story will reflect the hero's journey. A whole lot of the time, it won't, and the above list is proof positive that that's not some kind of box-office poison.

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

Randall:...Keeping those in mind, and starting from the top, tell me how that storyline applies to the character arc/storyline in these 28 of the top 30 highest-grossing films of all time, numbered by their position in the list:

#1 - Gone with the Wind
(#2 - Star Wars - No argument.)
#3 - The Sound of Music
#4 - E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial
#5 - The Ten Commandments
#6 - Titanic
#7 - Jaws
#8 - Doctor Zhivago
#9 - The Exorcist
#10 - Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
#11 - 101 Dalmatians
#12 - The Empire Strikes Back (this is arguable, but I think it misses more parts than it contains)
#13 - Ben Hur
(#14 - Avatar - I haven't seen it, so can't pronounce on it.)
#15 - Return of the Jedi
#16 - The Sting
#17 - Raiders of the Lost Ark
#18 - Jurassic Park
#19 - The Graduate
#20 - The Phantom Menace
#21 - Fantasia
#22 - The Godfather
#23 - Forrest Gump
#24 - Mary Poppins
#25 - The Lion King (I've read this is supposedly a classic HJ template as guided by Vogler himself, but I'll be danged if I can make it fit Vogler's template.)
#26 - Grease (Heh. Heh heh.)
#27 - Thunderball
#28 - The Dark Knight
#29 - The Jungle Book
#30 - Sleeping Beauty

Can you find elements of the journey in the stories of those films? Sure. A refusal of the call here, a mentor there, committing to a path with consequences to follow. Of course, because those elements are not the sole property of the hero's journey.

But the hero's journey storyline, according to Vogler's own template, and certainly according to the universal template Campbell claims exists in mythology, require the vast majority of those elements, in that order, because it's the presence of those components in that order that give the journey meaning and transformative power. And I challenge you to argue that the 28 films above--and the majority of the films on the rest of the list--have any connection beyond random elements to that definitive hero's journey. If that list is any indication, the vast majority of successful films DON'T follow the hero's journey, properly understood.

I will decline that challenge. Because I just do not have the time (I do have the interest, just not the time) to analyze such a list--and if I did, I would instead put it all in a book and get back some of that cash I have doled out over the years to other authors doing the same and who have taken my dead presidents. I did analyze Groundhog Day, one of the five on the other list in this thread, a movie listed as non HJ, and found a nice HJ in that movie. But I really can not find the upside to my debating the issue on a long list of films. I see HJs in just about all films (including those in the long list above), but hey, maybe I ate some bad chicken rogar-BigGrin(DBG) and I am hallucinating the HJ elements in those films. Apparently not everybody sees HJ elements in films, but that is okay (no HJ police walking around that i have seen,LOL). As long as a writer can write a story that compels a reader to turn to the next page with excitement/curiosity, whatever structure method that works will do the job and maybe get the script sold.

What they *do* follow, more or less, is the traditional story structure of set-up, conflict, and resolution, uniquely and ingeniously applied to a particular character and the particular conflict he is tasked with solving. Tell the story that makes sense for the characters you have and their respective conflicts. Sometimes that story will reflect the hero's journey. A whole lot of the time, it won't, and the above list is proof positive that that's not some kind of box-office poison.

You might be right.

 

[lambert]

texvanwinkle, you spent a year outlining and researching your first script before writing it? No judgment just find it interesting. Was it your first feature script or first script ever? I admire your dedication if it was your first screenplay of any length.

 

[texvanwinkle]

Was it your first feature script or first script ever? I admire your dedication if it was your first screenplay of any length.

Both, actually, and thanks. Much appreciated. In a way I didn't have a choice. The script deals with the true story of a B-17 crew based in the South Pacific early in WWII, so research was a necessity. Since this was pre-Internet--early to mid-90s--all of my research had to be done at the Dallas library (anyone still remember microfiche?), through magazines (ads to find crew members), and a lot of waiting for correspondence and public domain material. It took months just to get stuff in and track down crew members to interview. It was quite the process.

But I have to say, as much of a miracle of information as the Internet is--I could have amassed all my information in a couple of months now, tops--it was an adventure. There was the anticipation of waiting for records to come in, and the excitement of getting them, and letters from strangers from out of the blue. Modern technology rocks, but we've lost something with the instant gratification it provides.

What I didn't point out is that I wrote the first 92 pages in those few days. It was another month of research, cross-referencing multiple personnel statements, and writing to complete the third act dealing with their final mission together. Again, a tremendous amount of work, but to have the co-pilot on the mission pause for a moment and then say, "Wow," after my reading the final act to him over the phone--well, it makes it all worth it.

 

[Fahad]

thanks for the dramatica link, texvanwinkle. interesting theory

 

[DecadenceFilms]

#25 - The Lion King (I've read this is supposedly a classic HJ template as guided by Vogler himself, but I'll be danged if I can make it fit Vogler's template.)

Don't have the time to get involved in a big debate about the HJ, but this surprises me.

It's exactly the template that's been posted above.

1. Ordinary World. Normal Lion life, happy childhood...analagous to human life.
2. The call to adventure. When Scar comes along and kills his Dad.
3. The refusal...he goes and hides away and tries to forget his destiny.
4. Mentor: The monkey who reveals his true self.
5. Crossing the threshold. Adolescence into maturity. The recognition of his destiny. Decides to come back.
6. Allies etc The Warthog etc. Enemies Scar and the hyenas.
7. The Cave. Not seen Lion King for years, but doesn't he literally fight the hyenas in a cave like place?
Etc etc.

I'm also not sure the article posted is correct when it says this:

The individual, through prolonged psychological disciplines, gives up completely all attachment to his personal limitations, idiosyncrasies, hopes and fears, no longer resists the self-annihilation that is prerequisite to rebirth in the realization of truth, and so becomes ripe, at last, for the great at-one-ment. His personal ambitions being totally dissolved, he no longer tries to live but willingly relaxes to whatever may come to pass in him; he becomes, that is to say, an anonymity.
​

The Hero loses himself and is reborn. This is exactly what happens to Clarice Starling in The Silence of the Lambs and Randy the Ram in The Wrestler. Wait. No it isn’t.

That's exactly what's happening in the Wrestler isn't it, at least structurally? It's just an unhappy rather than triumphant ending. He no longer resists self-annihilation and lets go of all his conflict and simply becomes "the wrestler"...he totally dissolves all his personal ambitions and desires for redemption and accepts that all he is the Ram...he accepts his anonymity (his "fame" which is a mask to hide behind) and forsakes recognition of his interior character (lover, father).


Despite that, I do agree that structure shouldn't be taken too literally, which is the essential problem. The Heroes Journey is a great model to tell a particular type of film. It helps to plot out an epic story in a clear fashion and is a blue-print for creating an enotional ride and climax...but it's not the only one, or the only way to tell a successful story, artistically or commercially.

 

[texvanwinkle]

thanks for the dramatica link, texvanwinkle. interesting theory

Sure thing. I'm intrigued by it, but they'd have to have a free trial before I'd think of using it.

Here's another good blog I just happened onto: storyfanatic.com.

That one and Invisible Ink (not frequently updated) are great story design blogs.

A great reference is the archives page of Wordplayer.com, run by Terrio Rossio, half the writing team for Aladdin, The Mask of Zorro, Shrek, and all the Pirates of the Caribbean films.

Rossio's columns on screenwriting are good to essential. (Every screenwriter can benefit from his "Situation-Based Writing" column.)

 

[texvanwinkle]

It's exactly the template that's been posted above.

1. Ordinary World. Normal Lion life, happy childhood...analagous to human life.
2. The call to adventure. When Scar comes along and kills his Dad.
3. The refusal...he goes and hides away and tries to forget his destiny.
4. Mentor: The monkey who reveals his true self.
5. Crossing the threshold. Adolescence into maturity. The recognition of his destiny. Decides to come back.
6. Allies etc The Warthog etc. Enemies Scar and the hyenas.
7. The Cave. Not seen Lion King for years, but doesn't he literally fight the hyenas in a cave like place?
Etc etc.

Lion King definitely has more obvious HJ elements than most films, but if you'll note, you've condensed the whole film into the HJ's first half, except your "Crossing the threshold" and "Cave" are the end of the film instead of the Act I turning point and midpoint. The literal cave scene--you're right about that--is the climax of the film in Act 3. It's not the "approach to the cave" in the HJ, which occurs midway through the journey. (Or as the midpoint of Act 2 according to Vogler's template.)

More significant, Simba doesn't "refuse the call." He simply does what he's told: He asks Scar what he should do when he believes he's accidentally caused his dad's death, and Scar tells him to run away and never return. He does refuse to come back when Nala asks him to, but that's not until almost the end of Act 2.

Nor does he face any enemies or tests in the "Hakuna Matata" middle of the film, as the HJ dictates there be. He is helped to understand his destiny after an argument with Nala, but I'm not sure that really qualifies as a test.

Incidentally, Rafiki, who helps him understand that destiny, is clearly Simba's mentor in the film, but doesn't actually take on that mentor role--which in the HJ storyline occurs before the end of Act I (think Obi Wan Kenobi)--until the end of Act 2.

I don't get into all that to get into a debate. I get into it only to illustrate how even a film like Lion King--which is apparently considered a classic HJ template--is quite off the map in terms of the HJ, at least as distilled for Hollywood story development shops by one of their own, and certainly in terms of the classic mythological hero's journey. The hero's journey is about sacrifice and purification in order to attain something, tangible or intangible, that's necessary for transforming the world at large. What does Simba sacrifice in The Lion King? What does he attain?

To me The Lion King is a simple, classic self-realization story. That DOESN'T make it a bad or poorly told story. Not at all. It's a solid story and great entertainment. (Though I didn't care for it as much as, say, Beauty and the Beast.) It's simply not the story of the hero's journey as found in mythology, or even in Vogler's industry template. I think what people forget or don't realize is that in the HJ of mythology, the biggest test--which in films is usually the climax--usually occurs around the center of the story. It's essentially a "V"-shaped story rather than the constantly building upward slope we're used to in film. If memory serves (and it might well not), Crazy Heart is a much closer match to the actual hero's journey than The Lion King.

The moral of the story is that one can choose any structure one likes for a script. But if you're looking to emulate the hero's journey, to take advantage of its supposedly mythological power, you need to follow its particular elements, in its particular order. You can choose not to, and still have a very successful, satisfying film. It's just not the hero's journey.

I'm also not sure the article posted is correct when it says this:

That's exactly what's happening in the Wrestler isn't it, at least structurally? It's just an unhappy rather than triumphant ending. He no longer resists self-annihilation and lets go of all his conflict and simply becomes "the wrestler"...he totally dissolves all his personal ambitions and desires for redemption and accepts that all he is the Ram...he accepts his anonymity (his "fame" which is a mask to hide behind) and forsakes recognition of his interior character (lover, father).

I can't speak to The Wrestler; I haven't seen it yet (though it is on the list). I'll be watching it with a closer eye now.

The Heroes Journey is a great model to tell a particular type of film. It helps to plot out an epic story in a clear fashion and is a blue-print for creating an enotional ride and climax...but it's not the only one, or the only way to tell a successful story, artistically or commercially.

Precisely. And I'm done. The point of the thread was only to mention that I'm apparently not the only one writing about the indiscriminate use of the label for films it doesn't actually fit, and not to try to shoehorn films to fit it that really don't. It won't help those stories and it will only frustrate their authors.

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

Sure thing. I'm intrigued by it, but they'd have to have a free trial before I'd think of using it.

Here's another good blog I just happened onto: storyfanatic.com.
That one and Invisible Ink (not frequently updated) are great story design blogs....

Also don't forget to bookmark the blog Go Into the Story, "GITS", run by Scott Myers (K-9 with Jim Belushi, Alaska, Trojan War with Jennifer Love Hewitt, etc). I took several courses from Scott through UCLA online, he is fantastic. Great guy and knowledgeable, and updates his blog at least every day.