Here's a thing. . .form factor ?

[Postmaster]

None of those cameras from F3, FS100, AF100 to RED and certainly not the DSLRs are made for shoulder work.
Even the Alexa is happier on a dolly or tripod.
Heck the DSLRs are not even mad for filming in the first place.

So why would you expect they work for that sort of abuse? Shoulder work is usually ENG/News business - not narrative (with some rare exceptions).
Since most of those cameras are marketed as "cinematic" cameras (whatever that PR buzzword means here), the are - of course - not equipped for shoulder work.

Documentary work is something in between - I do even my docus mostly on sticks, crane or dolly - others love to run around with the camera the whole day - depends on the shooting style.
But if someone has that run and gun shooting style, why not buy the right tool (i.e. smaller sensor shoulder camera) instead of something that needs to be in a frankenstein rig and 9ß% of the material is out of focus, because of the super35 sensor.

What people want is a self contained, comfortable and well balanced shoulder camera in the size and weight of a DSLR, full 35 sensor, XLR inputs and a magical tiny mic on top of it, all the control's at the side handle, with a 12-600 parafocal f1.4 kit lens, auto focus and stabilizing, servo zoom, capable of 4k raw (or ProRes) on cheap SD cards in 10 bit 4:4:4 - and all that for under 3000 bucks.

I doubt that gonna happen soon. ;-)

Frank

 

[swopiv]

One configuration that worked well for me was a mini 60D rig setup. My first go round was the configuration below:

267851_10150251508377420_502562419_7326377_1612228_n by onesielaff, on Flickr

With the flip out screen, I put a diopter on it and used it as an EVF. The rig ended up being a bit longer than the one pictured above, and had a center grip for low shots. It was about the size of the Aaton A-Minima but the matte box and a stabilizing cross bar made it wider. Then I had a naked T3i at the ready for back up, lensing alternative, or whatever.

The configs are front heavy and not really suitable for long stationary takes, but are extremely well suited for unpredictable fast paced work on the go.

Hi James,
I like the minimal but weighty rig you have pictured. I do not want to divert this thread too much, but I wonder what you are powering with the battery in the picture? The camera? I ask because I have a few AntonBauer batteries I could repurpose for use with my DSLR.
Thanks,
David.

 

[MPB]

Documentary work is something in between - I do even my docus mostly on sticks, crane or dolly - others love to run around with the camera the whole day - depends on the shooting style.
But if someone has that run and gun shooting style, why not buy the right tool (i.e. smaller sensor shoulder camera) instead of something that needs to be in a frankenstein rig and 9ß% of the material is out of focus, because of the super35 sensor.

What people want is a self contained, comfortable and well balanced shoulder camera in the size and weight of a DSLR, full 35 sensor, XLR inputs and a magical tiny mic on top of it, all the control's at the side handle, with a 12-600 parafocal f1.4 kit lens, auto focus and stabilizing, servo zoom, capable of 4k raw (or ProRes) on cheap SD cards in 10 bit 4:4:4 - and all that for under 3000 bucks.

I doubt that gonna happen soon. ;-)

Frank

well, if you put it like that... you've kinda created a straw man. no wonder it's so easily dismissed.

 

[Guest]

Hi James,
I like the minimal but weighty rig you have pictured. I do not want to divert this thread too much, but I wonder what you are powering with the battery in the picture? The camera? I ask because I have a few AntonBauer batteries I could repurpose for use with my DSLR.
Thanks,
David.

Yes, I am powering the DSLR. The D-Tap on the side will allow me to power any other 12v device needed too. This gives the 60D at least 2days of shooting. Great for squeezing into cars and between crowds, being able to position the camera almost anywhere, or find tight angles in kitchens where an extra few inches makes a difference. All while never having to set up a charging station and forget batteries somewhere. (we were in a different city everyday, and I had no assistant)

If you can, get a quick release plate that doesn't require you to slide the camera off. Otherwise you have to pull stuff off to make room to remove the camera.

The battery setup uses the old XL2 anton bauer plate (7.2v output wire, with a 12v dtap), spliced the wiring, (mapped out the + and - polarities) and connected a DC female tip to it, so I could plug in the 5D/7D/60D plugin battery replacement end to it. Anton B sells dslr plates now, but you could save some $ going the XL2 route.

I just got a DP6 which I will power from the D-tap. Interested to see the life on that. I upgraded from the Marshall LCD50, so curious to see which works best, given the price difference.

 

[Guest]

Since most of those cameras are marketed as "cinematic" cameras (whatever that PR buzzword means here), the are - of course - not equipped for shoulder work.

Very true. I find it sad though. Before the age of sound things were a bit different. Cameras were getting much smaller and were moving around. I think cameras took a big step backwards with sound, and are starting to come back around with the DSLR's. (in regards to versatility and options, and to where things are going. This is more because of technological developments and the information sharing age of the web.)

Documentary work is something in between - I do even my docus mostly on sticks, crane or dolly - others love to run around with the camera the whole day - depends on the shooting style.

I like it when shooters use camera support systems (tripods, jibs, etc...) for docs. Variety is good.

But if someone has that run and gun shooting style, why not buy the right tool (i.e. smaller sensor shoulder camera) instead of something that needs to be in a frankenstein rig and 9ß% of the material is out of focus, because of the super35 sensor.

This seems a bit closed minded. Especially in the stylistic spectrum of things. You are assuming that a 2/3" (or smaller than m43) is the right tool. Hell and Back again was shot on the 5DmkII. Not to say it was the best film ever made, but it is in the running for the industry's biggest awards. I think I know what you mean, it is just the way you phrased it that seems to not account for those that use large sensor cameras in run and gun shooting for a specific reason. Some people take the precautions and even discipline themselves to overcome certain deficiencies or challenges in their gear.

 

[Postmaster]

Bridesmaids was also nominated for Best Original Screenplay - as you can see, that doesn´t say anything at all .. ;-)

No, serious, there is nothing wrong with a guy, that run and guns his 5dmkII when he executes his shots right. That is tack on focus and exposure - but most of the time, wide open, blown out, out of focus is not a stylistic or even artistic thing, but the sheer lack of craft at the focus wheel.
My grandma can do shaky handheld and wrong exposure, but it takes a pro to get it right.
So one would need to practice a while, till he can master the full sensor beast. But it´s always much easier to call it artistic or intended.

And yeah, stopping down to f4-f8, so you have at least the ears and nose in focus is no crime.
Sorry for the rant, but I´m so fed up with shaky, out of focus, super DOF, overexposed footage, that floods Vimeo and Youtube.

well, if you put it like that... you've kinda created a straw man. no wonder it's so easily dismissed.

I don´t "put it like that" - that´s what I see in the forums here and elsewhere.

BoooHoo - I want a smaller, lighter camera, I want a better codec, I want RAW, I want 10 bit, I need autofocus, I need stabilisation, I need 4k etc... Just flick trough the treads here, you find it all.

We have cameras now that can do things, we could only dream of a few years ago - and that at a ridiculous price point.
But all I hear is: I want this, I need that, if it only would have this or that feature, I could make a great film.

Feature - Shmeature.

Go out and shoot something guys (dogs, cats and flowers don´t count), the cameras are not slowing you down anymore.

Frank

 

[combatentropy]

What people want is a self contained, comfortable and well balanced shoulder camera

Whoa there. In case Panasonic or someone is listening, not everyone wants a shoulder camera, I'm sorry. I want something like the VG20.

 

[MPB]

Bridesmaids was also nominated for Best Original Screenplay - as you can see, that doesn´t say anything at all .. ;-)

No, serious, there is nothing wrong with a guy, that run and guns his 5dmkII when he executes his shots right. That is tack on focus and exposure - but most of the time, wide open, blown out, out of focus is not a stylistic or even artistic thing, but the sheer lack of craft at the focus wheel.
My grandma can do shaky handheld and wrong exposure, but it takes a pro to get it right.
So one would need to practice a while, till he can master the full sensor beast. But it´s always much easier to call it artistic or intended.

And yeah, stopping down to f4-f8, so you have at least the ears and nose in focus is no crime.
Sorry for the rant, but I´m so fed up with shaky, out of focus, super DOF, overexposed footage, that floods Vimeo and Youtube.



I don´t "put it like that" - that´s what I see in the forums here and elsewhere.

BoooHoo - I want a smaller, lighter camera, I want a better codec, I want RAW, I want 10 bit, I need autofocus, I need stabilisation, I need 4k etc... Just flick trough the treads here, you find it all.

We have cameras now that can do things, we could only dream of a few years ago - and that at a ridiculous price point.
But all I hear is: I want this, I need that, if it only would have this or that feature, I could make a great film.

Feature - Shmeature.

Go out and shoot something guys (dogs, cats and flowers don´t count), the cameras are not slowing you down anymore.

Frank

i agree with the point that there are those asking for the world in a tiny package, for a ridiculous price. and that's a good excuse to be dismissive, if that's the goal. but i think painting with such a broad brush is equally as lazy as far as contributing to the discussion. the implication that anyone asking for better design is an inexperienced and ungrateful wedding shooter is obviously false. (and of course, there's no reason to be dismissive of wedding shooters, either.) if you're happy with your gear, for the shooting you do, more power too you. if you don't spend much time shooting handheld, i can see why the subject wouldn't interest you. to me, handheld or not, many of the products offered right now are pandering to short term trends and missing the mark. my reasons for this view have been elaborated in large part here by myself and others. in this day and age i see no excuse for poor design and implementation of the most current technology for the equipment i use every day.

 

[Guest]

Camera rig pictures that'll make you lol out loud.

"I don't know how to shoot, but I think this rig makes me look cool. One handing it, with an epic stance!"

"My prego girlfriend thinks I look good. One handing it!

"No handing it! Leaves my hands free for all the other cool things I do."

"...help"

"Great Scott! Overcranking to 88fps sends us back in time!"

"I spent 200 man hours making this, and hurt my spine shooting with it, but I saved $200!"

"My knees don't work."

 

[Guest]

One of the things I hate about these shoulder rigs/camera combos is that the operators hands are not on anything that controls the camera!

 

[swopiv]

"Great Scott! Overcranking to 88fps sends us back in time!"

Made my day! :thumbsup: I agree, if we must have rigs with funny 'legs' out in front, at least put some controls on them. I wonder why no-one (at least no-one I have heard of) has started developing servo controls for DSLRs. I did consider hacking an old servo from a Fujinon B-Mount for this purpose, but I couldn't find the pinout and then I gave up on the basis that I would probably never use it as I don't have any parfocal zooms anyway!

Also, thanks for the info James! I'm now going to blatantly copy your setup!

David.

 

[swopiv]

Bridesmaids was also nominated for Best Original Screenplay - as you can see, that doesn´t say anything at all .. ;-)

No, serious, there is nothing wrong with a guy, that run and guns his 5dmkII when he executes his shots right. That is tack on focus and exposure - but most of the time, wide open, blown out, out of focus is not a stylistic or even artistic thing, but the sheer lack of craft at the focus wheel.
My grandma can do shaky handheld and wrong exposure, but it takes a pro to get it right.
So one would need to practice a while, till he can master the full sensor beast. But it´s always much easier to call it artistic or intended.

And yeah, stopping down to f4-f8, so you have at least the ears and nose in focus is no crime.
Sorry for the rant, but I´m so fed up with shaky, out of focus, super DOF, overexposed footage, that floods Vimeo and Youtube.



I don´t "put it like that" - that´s what I see in the forums here and elsewhere.

BoooHoo - I want a smaller, lighter camera, I want a better codec, I want RAW, I want 10 bit, I need autofocus, I need stabilisation, I need 4k etc... Just flick trough the treads here, you find it all.

We have cameras now that can do things, we could only dream of a few years ago - and that at a ridiculous price point.
But all I hear is: I want this, I need that, if it only would have this or that feature, I could make a great film.

Feature - Shmeature.

Go out and shoot something guys (dogs, cats and flowers don´t count), the cameras are not slowing you down anymore.

Frank

I have nothing to add here, I just enjoyed the post so much I thought it deserved a second airing!

Or, in internet parlance: +1

 

[Guest]

Made my day! :thumbsup: I agree, if we must have rigs with funny 'legs' out in front, at least put some controls on them. I wonder why no-one (at least no-one I have heard of) has started developing servo controls for DSLRs. I did consider hacking an old servo from a Fujinon B-Mount for this purpose, but I couldn't find the pinout and then I gave up on the basis that I would probably never use it as I don't have any parfocal zooms anyway!

Also, thanks for the info James! I'm now going to blatantly copy your setup!

David.

haha, good good. Let's hope someone makes a control that interfaces with all of the functions of the camera, right down through all of the menus, and then house it in a sturdy structure so it can withstand weight and torque of being a handle for an entire camera rig.

 

[Searcher]

View attachment 48625
"I spent 200 man hours making this, and hurt my spine shooting with it, but I saved $200!"

HA!

 

[yolk]

chuckle

whenever we were struggling finding space for an updated component in our Y2 camera resulting in design changes we were not really fond of...
View attachment 48801
we went back and looked at this 'camera project' and thought, okay, we're still fine

i'm not dissing his project, i truly think it's a marvelous little monster

 

[MPB]

wow. that's cool.

 

[combatentropy]

whenever we were struggling finding space for an updated component in our Y2 camera

I had to Google to find you. Very nice design: http://www.yolk.org/SWF/Y2.swf

 

[Tzedekh]

The Yolk camera uses an Aaton viewfinder -- interestingly, the camera itself has a profile like the Aaton XTR.

 

[Postmaster]

Can´t beat that:

Frank

 

[Guest]

Media becomes a reusable and long term use tool, and camera support systems become expendables.