Help with wireless sync

[Sound Chaser]

I am recording a feature and need to run timecode with a wireless sync box. The camera is a F900 and I am thinking that I should set it up for record-run.
I have used this system once before a few years ago and it worked like a charm. The files just flew into Pro Tools and lined up like magic, which is great since I may be hired to do post.
Since I have never run untethered before I am a little nervous to be trying this out on a properly budgeted feature. I also don't remember exactly what I did the last time I used the F900 a few years ago.

So I am assuming that to record (record-run) I have to use the camera as the TC generator and lock the slate and recorder as slave. Since I don't want to interrupt the connection I am assuming I can generate a second source via the TC out of the recorder to sync the slate. Is that it; anything else to be concerned with? Any suggestions? Would it be better to run camera slave and just record normally since the TC should still line up all the files with the picture.

 

[Steve House]

What are you using for your recorder? Does it have a stable TC generator in it such as the Sound Devices recorders do? Wolf Seeberg recommends using the recorder as your master, set for continuous free-run TC. Jam the slate from the recorder. Jam a Lockit box from the recorder as well to supply TC and Tri-level sync to the camera. Or do it the old-fashioned motion picture way and ignore the TC on the camera, conforming the editing timeline to the photgraphed slate for picture. When audio is dropped in, the embedded timestamp will line up to the matching slate. Use the recorder's TC generator as the master as above. Jam the slate from it so the codes match.

Seeberg's website has a lot of info specifically on sync'ing to the F900. www.wolfvid.com

 

[Sound Chaser]

Yes I will be using a 744t. I prefer to use the recorder as a generator but, want to run 'record run' as opposed to free run. To answer my question, if this is the route I go will I not have to use the camera as the generator to achieve 'record run.'

Definitely will not run the old 'film' style slate only method. They are going to want immediate synced files.
I may indeed do as you suggested because this is what I have done in the past. Can you tell me why you would not run with the camera controlling TC using record run? I'll check out the link, thanks.

 

[Rippie]

if you go record run, yes you will use the camera as the master.
You need to make sure you start record AFTER the camera starts, and STOP record before the camera ends so you dont have overlapping timecode.

use Ext TC/cont mode on the 744 if you go wireless with the timecode.
It will continue continuous timecode if you get a wireless "hit" and timecode goes away for a moment.

There is no reason why freerun cant give you immediate sync as well. (at least as quick as rec run)

For the reasons stated above its a much safer and smarter way to go in my opinion
and many others.

 

[Sound Chaser]

There is no reason why freerun cant give you immediate sync as well. (at least as quick as rec run)

For the reasons stated above its a much safer and smarter way to go in my opinion
and many others.

Yes I will probably go this route for safety and familiarity.
One last question:
What frame rate would you use for a camera running 24P/23.97 fps? 29.97 seems to be standard in NTSC systems with the exception of TV. Why would you not use the same as the camera's frame rate of 23.976. I realize these are two different things and not dependent on each other. Is it OK to use 23.976

 

[Steve House]

Yes I will be using a 744t. I prefer to use the recorder as a generator but, want to run 'record run' as opposed to free run. To answer my question, if this is the route I go will I not have to use the camera as the generator to achieve 'record run.'

Definitely will not run the old 'film' style slate only method. They are going to want immediate synced files.
I may indeed do as you suggested because this is what I have done in the past. Can you tell me why you would not run with the camera controlling TC using record run? I'll check out the link, thanks.

The problem with record run is you said you want to be untethered using a "wireless sync box." What I think of as sync box is an external sync generator such as the Deneke SB3 Syncbox or an Ambient Lockit and they don't send code from the camera via radio. For record run with the camera as master, you'll need to send code, either via cable or wireless, from the camera to the recorder at the start of each take. You can't just jam the recorder and slate once from the camera and be done with it - with record run the code in the camera stops at the end of a take and restarts from the same position when the camera rolls for the next take. Rather than running independently, the recorder has to receive the camera's code at the start of each take. Remember to slate each take, even with a TC workflow.

What frame rate would you use for a camera running 24P/23.97 fps? 29.97 seems to be standard in NTSC systems with the exception of TV. Why would you not use the same as the camera's frame rate of 23.976. I realize these are two different things and not dependent on each other. Is it OK to use 23.976

Which frame and sample rate to use depends on the post workflow. Sound Devices recommends using 29.97 NDF for the audio when the camera is shooting 23.976 and editing in an NTSC SD environment. While the frame count per second is different the zero frames always line up and when the 23.976 footage is converted to NTSC the frame counts line up to the audio. If editing will be in an HD environment, with the camera at 23.976 also use 23.976 on the audio. But verify exactly what frame rate the camera is really running at, 23.976 or true 24 FPS

You'll find this article of interest ... http://www.denecke.com/Support/24pinfo/24pinfo.htm

 

[Rippie]

Yes I will probably go this route for safety and familiarity.
One last question:
What frame rate would you use for a camera running 24P/23.97 fps? 29.97 seems to be standard in NTSC systems with the exception of TV. Why would you not use the same as the camera's frame rate of 23.976. I realize these are two different things and not dependent on each other. Is it OK to use 23.976

Unless told otherwise I record to the same timecode that the camera is recording to. It makes simple sense. They are going to be editing the video and audio in the same timeline.
As far as the final product being 29.97, the fact that web presentation
seems to work best at 23.98 and dvd players will play back a 23.98 dvd
other than broadcast you don't have any need to be working at 29.97. (if the video file is 23.98)

If it is going to broadcast they are going to be converting the video anyway, just do it together.

I understand in the "hollywood" world post sound seems to like to work with
29.97 while picture works at 23.98. I just totally don't "get" it.
I respect it when asked, but I still don't "get it".


If you're recording to the F900, they should be recording to 23.98. NOT
24fps. Not for sound reasons but everything I learned is that it's a total nightmare
for picture later down the road and its something that should be avoided.

 

[Steve House]

...
If it is going to broadcast they are going to be converting the video anyway, just do it together.
...
I understand in the "hollywood" world post sound seems to like to work with
29.97 while picture works at 23.98. I just totally don't "get" it.
I respect it when asked, but I still don't "get it".
....

As I understand it, the reason is that when editing in an NTSC environment such as Avid, the picture is converted from 23.976 to 29.97 BEFORE the sound is synced to it. After conversion, the video is placed on the NLE timeline and only then is the audio added and synced. So the end result is a 29.97 audio file is being synced to a 29.97 video timeline.

 

[Sound Chaser]

Thanks a lot guys...this helps a lot

Thanks a lot guys...this helps a lot

There should be a sticky on Sync sound.
Even though I've done it before, I still find it confusing.

So in my case the director wants dailies so the sound files need to line up directly on import. All sync will be done prior to post so the editors can work with picture and sound as one from the start in an HD environment.
As I understand it I should run 23.976 (camera's true frame rate)
I will use free run and use the 744t as the generator for camera and slate.
This sounds the most logical to me...correct?

I would assume using TOD you should first set the recorder and camera's internal timecode separately to the same approximate start even though jam sync would negate this. Which brings on last point...what is the difference between external and internal timecode within the units.

 

[Rippie]

There should be a sticky on Sync sound.
Even though I've done it before, I still find it confusing.

So in my case the director wants dailies so the sound files need to line up directly on import. All sync will be done prior to post so the editors can work with picture and sound as one from the start in an HD environment.
As I understand it I should run 23.976 (camera's true frame rate)
I will use free run and use the 744t as the generator for camera and slate.
This sounds the most logical to me...correct?

Yes sir.

I would assume using TOD you should first set the recorder and camera's internal timecode separately to the same approximate start even though jam sync would negate this. Which brings on last point...what is the difference between external and internal timecode within the units

No point in setting the slave devices timecode as the moment you jam it will read the "new" timecode.

Internal- the unit is using its own built in timecode generator
external- the device is disabling its timecode generator and using the timecode from another device.


When jamming and disconnecting..
the units are still using their internal clocks, its just that the quick jam re-adjusted the actual time so both devices are using internal.

If you are tethered to your cable for timecode ((or wireless), the slave would never need to use its own timecode generator
since its just refering to the timecode it is being fed.

 

[Steve House]

There should be a sticky on Sync sound.
Even though I've done it before, I still find it confusing.

So in my case the director wants dailies so the sound files need to line up directly on import. All sync will be done prior to post so the editors can work with picture and sound as one from the start in an HD environment.
As I understand it I should run 23.976 (camera's true frame rate)
I will use free run and use the 744t as the generator for camera and slate.
This sounds the most logical to me...correct?

I would assume using TOD you should first set the recorder and camera's internal timecode separately to the same approximate start even though jam sync would negate this. Which brings on last point...what is the difference between external and internal timecode within the units.

The camera can operate in either true 24p or 23.98 mode, among others. Verify with the DP which one is going to be used. Verify with post what their workflow will be.